Andrea Zoellner: UX Copywriting – Episode 34

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Andrea Zoellner is passionate about making the web more accessible and usable. With clear UX copywriting and a single-minded focus on the user, she helps people succeed online.

Andrea and I talked about:

• her passion for making the web more accessible
• her path to UX copywriting via communications and journalism
• her definition of UX copywriting: tiny bits of copy that help people complete a flow
• how her journalism background helps her anticipate users’ needs
• the expansion of the term “copywriting” from marketing and advertising to UX
• how common it is for writers now to do be called upon to do both marketing and UX copy
• supporting your target customer with the information that they need to accomplish their goals
• the balance between being generous with your content and paying attention to the need to get marketing results from it
• how to measure the ROI of content, and the importance of tracking and measuring content engagement and performance
• the importance of content in achieving SEO goals
• the value of writing to connect with your customers and to answer their questions
• using tools like A/B testing and other research methods to guide your content creation
• how to track content success in both flow-oriented UX task writing as well as how-to content
• how she uses Google Analytics to track the validity of her marketing copy hypotheses (and how she’s always surprised by the info)
• the value of in-person interactions to drive idea generation and to identify sources of friction
• the differences between micro copy and macro copy, and how both can/should impel the reader/user forward
• how difficult UX copywriting can be, the challenge of being succinct, the need to be accurate and meaningful
• how to make my websites more accessible to people and being understood by the largest audience possible
• the importance of accessibility in both writing and design

Andrea’s Bio

Andrea is a Content Creator at SiteGround and the lead organizer for WordCamp Montreal. She trained as a broadcast journalist and worked in corporate communications before trading it for a career in tech. Now, she uses her experience as a writer to improve how people engage with information online, whether it’s through blogging, editing microcopy, or developing brand messaging. When she’s not at home in Montreal, Canada, she’s sampling the digital nomad life and documenting her adventures on her travel blog capsulesuitcase.com.

Video

Here’s the video version of our conversation:

Transcript

Larry:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode Number 34 of the Content Strategy Interviews Podcast. I’m really happy today to have with us Andrea Zoellner. Andrea is a content creator at SiteGround, the web hosting company, but she’s done a lot more than that. Let me have Andrea tell you a little bit more about her background and what she’s up to today.

Andrea:
Hi, Larry, and thanks so much for having me on the podcast.

Andrea:
Yes, you’re right. I am a content creator at SiteGround, but before that, I was on the marketing team at Automattic, so I’ve been in the WordPress space for a couple of years now. One of the things that I’m most passionate about is making the Web more accessible for people through language.

Andrea:
Before that, I was working in communications in the nonprofit sector and in the corporate sector, as well as working in journalism before that, which is what I studied in college. But yeah, I would say that words are really my business.

Larry:
Nice. Like I said, this is the thirty-fourth interview I’ve done, and everybody has a different pathway in and yours is unique, but there’s a few common threads, but I think that journalism is a very typical one.

Larry:
You’ve been writing and reporting and sharing information for a long time. One thing that, when I hear that … I think I have you pegged in my head as a UX copywriter. I think because that’s the term you used when I saw you speak at a WordCamp recently, but is that … Let me, I want to focus around that UX copywriting today, but I have a feeling that it’s a pretty, that it might be more broadly interpreted in some worlds, and there’s many. But, anyhow, let me have you describe what UX copywriting is and how you practice it.

Andrea:
Sure. I wouldn’t call myself a pure UX copywriter. I think I got to it by accident, because any time that there’s a writer on the team, you’ll get asked by the designers or the developers to come and help. It’s one of the many things that I do, and it’s one of the things that I’ve gotten to love quite a bit just through working on projects as a writer and as a copywriter.

Andrea:
UX design, I would describe as specifically the words that we use in flows, whether that’s through an app or different setups that you have on your website. Forms, checkouts, subscriptions, anything where there’s an action related, there’s going to be words that help people get through those flows. UX copywriting is specifically those tiny little bits of copy, those words. It can be one to eight words that really help people do things successfully online.

Larry:
Right, and that’s so important. I mean, we all try to write shorter, and you have to, in that world. Is there a particular part of your background or training? Or did you have to develop that skill of being able to convey, super important like, “Here’s the next step or the next action that you have to do in a super concise format.” Did you have to adapt to that, or did it come naturally to do that?

Andrea:
I think it came naturally, just because when you’re learning to write for different audiences, you really have to think about your user. You have to think about the people that are consuming your content, and what are the questions that they’re going to have. As a journalist, you want to answer all the questions that people might have when you’re writing a piece.

Andrea:
When you’re going through a flow, you also have to put yourself in the shoes of your users and of your customers, and thinking, “Where it might be some friction?” and “Where will they get caught up because of some questions that we’ve left unanswered?” I think that’s really the skill that has helped me the most.

Larry:
Right. I’ve probably talked to 10, 20 journalists since last year, and you’re the first person to make that almost like an explicit connection between news-gathering skills, and reporting skills, and UX writing. I love that, that it’s a very parallel approach, just making sure you’re answering the questions that either the audience or the user is going to expect.

Larry:
One thing that I want to ask about the term “copywriting,” because, to me, the origin … I’m old, and I go back to the old traditional media, and when you think of copywriting, you think of advertising and marketing copywriting. That’s obviously still going on, that more persuasive. There’s still an action, but it’s more about a call to a marketing action, than to accomplishing an online task. Do you think the term copywriting has evolved? It seems like a broader term nowadays.

Andrea:
I think it does. That might also be a mistake to be using it so broadly, but it’s just a catchy word that seems to communicate fairly quickly what we’re talking about. I think one of the big differences when I’m approaching copywriting for advertisement, for example, and copywriting in a UX copy kind of setting, is that I guess the idea is with copywriting in an ad setting, is that you’re trying to get people to do something that you want them to do.

Andrea:
You want them to buy. You want them to click. You want them to engage with your website in some way, or your product. Whereas with UX copywriting, you want to help people do things that they want to do. Hopefully, if you’re successful, those two things overlap.

Andrea:
You get your advertisements to bring them to your website, or to your website, and with your UX copy, you help them to complete the task that they’ve now believed that they want to do. That’s how it’s sort of a little bit different, is that, once you’ve gotten your customer to make a decision, then it’s helping them with your words to complete that.

Larry:
Got it. I’m wondering too, like, I was thinking because the couple of the places you’ve worked. You’ve worked at SiteGround, and before that, Automattic. What’s your book? Good-sized places, but they’re not … are they big enough, that they have separate people doing those two, like, the marketing writing and the UX writing? Or do you sometimes find yourself in the position of shifting gears during the day, like, on one kind, to the other?

Andrea:
Definitely. It’s definitely, a wearing lots of hats kind of situation. I think there’s probably a lot of places where there are dedicated UX writers, but I also see a benefit in wearing multiple hats and having your foot in a couple of different teams. I think with the size of company that SiteGround is, the marketing team, we work very closely together, and we work with our designers very closely.

Andrea:
I think that’s a really nice way to have a very holistic approach to our product, and to make sure that we’re listening to our customers, that that information that we have as marketers, we’re sending back to our team, and that we’re building products that really are solving problems that our customers are telling them, telling us that they need solved.

Andrea:
As a marketer, you know, I can have a unique approach, as well, knowing the language that my customers are using, and being able to speak their language when I’m then developing a product.

Larry:
Got it. You know, one thing you just said there, about like the marketing, versus the UX, that’s that kind of flow design stuff. There’s, within marketing, I think there’s a couple of, there’s kind of what I think of as conventional … not conventional but kind of persuasive marketing stuff, marketing content and copy that is designed to promote that call to action.

Larry:
But there’s also, I think, a large amount of, especially with Web content these days, is what would be in the content-marketing world that, that material that reads a lot like journalism, or informative stuff that’s designed to show your authority, or to persuade people that you know what you’re talking about. Do you do much of that in your … or, I’m assuming you’ve done that somewhere along the line?

Andrea:
Sure. Yeah, and there’s definitely a place for that.

Andrea:
I mean, whether you’re looking at it more at a technical level with the SEO, and getting people to get to your website in the first place. Then there’s another portion of it, which is key opinion leader positioning, and helping your brand really communicate useful information. That’s probably my favorite part is, is to support your target customer with content that will help them to achieve whatever they’re trying to achieve.

Andrea:
Of course, your product is going to help them do that as well, but all the information that they’ll need around that, or that might help them with their goals, that are, um, sort of adjacent to their main goal, is things that we can do and we can help them with, with our knowledge.

Andrea:
If it’s hosting knowledge, for example, it’s something that can be very complicated, but everyone needs it. Whether you’re a small business owner, you’re a blogger, and so, by helping and sharing our knowledge, that’s something that we can do.

Andrea:
And then, it also makes for a lot of extra content that we can share on our website, and through newsletters, and online through social media.

Andrea:
So, yeah, it’s all part of a big strategy. But in the end, what we’re doing is helping. Helping people.

Larry:
Yeah, exactly. I think that’s … that that’s an increasingly, I think we’re both biased, because we both spend a lot of time in the WordPress world, and that’s an open source software community where it’s all about sharing and everybody just pitching in together to do stuff. And I think that’s there.

Larry:
But you’ve done some other stuff you, I wonder, are we blissfully tainted in that way, by that lovey-dovey thing, or you think, it seems like that’s taking hold as a broader sort of intent, just like, being genuinely helpful, as opposed to being .. not pushy, but sort of self-centered about your marketing. You see that taking hold more broadly, than just like, the open source world . . .

Andrea:
I’d like to think so, because it’s a nice approach to just marketing in general, is to have an idea that, at the end of the day, we’re helping people launch their own businesses or to make a living for their family, and all these great things. But at the same time, it’s a question of dollars at the end of the day, too. I think the balance there is to say, “Okay, we’re helping people by writing this content, and it’s going to get out there.” Hopefully they’re going to buy our product, or they’re going to engage with our business, in a way.

Andrea:
That’s how we can continue working, and continue doing what we’re doing, is to have a business that’s successful. And so, as much as the WordPress community is very unique, in that open source community feeling, I think a lot of people that are making a living using WordPress know, that, to continue to do this, you have to … you have to sell, or you have to build your business in a way that is sustainable. At the same time, you know, what drives you can still be an altruistic driving force.

Larry:
Well that kind of-

Andrea:
I hope catches on elsewhere.

Larry:
I hope so, too. But also, what you’re saying makes me wonder about it. One of the key things that comes up a lot in discussions around content, and content creation, is the effectiveness of the content, and ultimately the return on investment, the ROI. How has that manifested? Like, can you work at Automattic, and SiteGround, and other places you’ve been? Do you have, are there, sort of practices that you’ve found, that are best at measuring the effectiveness of content?

Andrea:
That’s a great question, and I think a lot of people are just getting around to that, measuring what is the direct dollar impact of your content marketing, your events marketing, all these things that seem kind of hard to calculate, or how hard to drive actual sales, or to make that correlation.

Andrea:
So I think setting yourself up in a way that you can at least track, in short-term or long-term, where your traffic is coming from. If you’re not doing that, you should start doing that right now. Measuring your reads versus the spending and tracking, whether it’s with Google analytics or something that you built in-house.

Andrea:
Tracking how people are engaging with your content, where they’re going right after they’ve read your content. Putting CTAs in your content and seeing how people engage with that. Whether you’re doing video or text, there’s ways that you can use the tools that you’re using to publish, to also track.

Andrea:
There’s a lot of video hosting services, apart from YouTube, but YouTube is great, as well, and that allow you to track your analytics, and also, to then measure that against your sales and your landing pages, where you have people going through your sales funnels.

Andrea:
But it’s something that I think it’s still, we’re still getting … the industry in general is still developing the tools to actually do that. But I know, from just a pure SEO perspective, content is great. Content really does work.

Andrea:
From a sales perspective, it’s a longer journey. You’re not going to have a lot of information within a week. It’s going to take a little bit of time to see how your things are working, and then, to act on that knowledge, too.

Larry:
Right. And I think you just kind of hit on … I think, I don’t know how, I don’t know the exact consideration that everyone has about what they expect of their content, but two things that I keep coming up over and over again, are, especially among small site owners, is that this expectation that “Oh, if I write, I will be discovered by Google, one, and two, I will be perceived as an authority.” And those are, that’s SEO, and that’s content marketing, and there’s way more to it than that.

Larry:
I think there’s maybe some of that, I mean, because it was … those things are, one, they’re hard to measure. But they also take time. I think there’s so much, not pressure, but expectation, that things like Google Analytics, and other measurement tools, and building and tracking codes, and all that stuff, can give you an immediate feel for your content.

Larry:
I think the fact remains that a lot of this effort, it has a longer-term return on it. Do you agree with that?How do you, if you’re fighting … not fighting, but asking for budget, or resources, going in and saying, “No, we got to keep doing this, because we can … I don’t have exact numbers, but not just, ‘Trust me, but here’s what my gut says in here, so I can reinforce that.'” Have you had conversations like that?

Andrea:
Yes, for sure. I think a lot of people get really excited at the idea of content, and when things are trending like that, it’s easy to want to launch yourself full on into a huge content marketing strategy. I think part of it is great. I think anyone who’s writing … I am a writer, so I encourage people, even if you’re just writing to speak with your customer at a very personal level, that’s going to help your brand.

Andrea:
Even if you’re just building a knowledge base, so that you can then refer people to some of your help tutorial articles, or, all these things are going to be valuable in lots of ways. And they may be in surprising ways. Now, when it comes to investing money and time into it, I think there’s ways to do it carefully, and to do it with intention. That includes A/B testing, or asking your clients, what kind of ways do they like to be communicated with?

Andrea:
It might not be the best fit. The way that you picture things happening might not be what they’re going to respond to. So I think it’s also worth doing a little bit of research, and starting slowly, and then sort of evaluating after that, whether this is something that you want to pour a lot of time and money into.

Andrea:
As marketers, I think it’s great that we can test things. I think we have lots of tools these days where we can A/B test on a daily basis, but also, try things longer term, and to run tests that allow us to really make decisions that are informed by data, which is something that’s new, I think, to a lot of writers.

Larry:
Right, exactly. Well, the other thing, and especially in the UX context, something that’s so big in the UX world, and it’s interesting. There is different kinds of research happening in different, each arena. I’m sure there’s some merging and overlapping now. But like you were just saying, that in marketing, you do a lot of A/B testing, and testing which message, or which headline, or whatever, is most effective.

Larry:
In the UX world, there’s conventionally, a lot of research that happens before you even begin designing your writing. Do you, or have you kind of worked in both, in both arenas? And have you figured out, are there other ways, I guess to kind of have ongoing touch points about understanding how effective your content is?

Andrea:
That’s another great question, and I will say that I’ve been quite lucky that I haven’t had to code my own tests, or I haven’t had to. I’ve been able to, to ask a team to do that for me, or to have people that are much better at it. But, that being said, I’m super interested in the results.

Andrea:
Of course, when you’re working with UX designers, the nice thing is that a lot of your content will be broken down into strings, and into screens. So you can actually pinpoint where the dropoff is, where people are not following through with certain actions that you’ve intended for them to do in a particular screen.

Andrea:
Having a very structured setup like that for your tests does allow you to narrow in on where your mistakes might be, or where there might be something that’s confusing or too vague. That’s something that’s helpful in UX design.

Andrea:
Now when it comes to larger pieces of content, like a how to tutorial, or even just a blog post, you don’t really have a sense of how successful it is, unless you’re particularly tracking one metric, whether people click on a call to action button. But it’s helpful to add a little surveys at the end. Like, “Was this helpful? Yes or no?”, and, “Rate this piece of content.”

Andrea:
Those are little ways that you can build in, at least so you get a small sense of what people are thinking as they read your content.

Larry:
Right. No, it’s interesting. It just occurred to me as you were talking about that, that there might be … there’s a lot of learning back and forth that we can do. For example, a lot of content marketers try to map their content of the user journey, the customer journey.

Larry:
It seems like you could have, maybe not exactly analogous, but touch points, like you were just saying, little surveys. Or some kind of call to action, or some measurable result, after they read the content, about what they do with it.

Larry:
And you have an intent or a hope about what they’ll do, but gathering information about that. Have you done that with any of the more marketing kinds of content you’ve done? Something analogous to that UX, “Where are they getting stuck” idea?

Andrea:
Sometimes, when I write content, like you said, with the user journey, I do have an idea in my mind, or a hypothesis, that I see people consuming my content in a certain order, and for it to trigger certain actions. With Google Analytics, for example, I can sort of track how many people are successfully following the journey that I’ve mapped for them.

Andrea:
I’m always surprised by what I find. I’m only one person, and I have all these ideas about what people should be doing. But the nice thing is that I can then act on the information, seeing where people go, after they read a piece of content. Am I recommending the right actions? Is it a natural flow? Does it make sense? And I would.

Andrea:
So I’d say, that analytics like that on your website allow you to see, and to test your own hypothesis, and to then maybe adjust your course, depending on that.

Larry:
Got you. Hey, another thing that occurs to me there, as you talk, is … I kind of doubt that many, if not most writers, are the kind of people who love poring over Google Analytics data. But it occurs to me that you could probably find some insights, like unexpected pathways that people are taking, and that could lead to more creative ideas, more material. has that been the case for you?

Andrea:
Absolutely, for sure. It’s really interesting to me to see how much content people consume before they make a decision. What are the types of content they’re looking for, and which content is the last one? What’s the last touch point before they make a purchase? That’s an easy one, because then I’m thinking, “Okay, what is it about that that was so successful?” Or, “How much information do people need to feel safe, or to feel reassured, before I’m acting on a hunch?”

Andrea:
Those were things that I like, as well as testing how people come to the website in the first place. If there was one piece of content that was particularly engaging, that we’re using for remarketing purposes, knowing which ones were successful for that gives me a huge clue as to what will get people to act.

Larry:
Right. Are there other ways you have of casting your net about which content you should be creating?

Andrea:
I think, like you said, you saw me at an event recently. I think meeting people in person has been a really great experience for me, getting to know our customers, in person, and reaching out, and having conversations about what drives them.

Andrea:
That’s been a really fun way for me to get ideas about content, knowing what questions people are asking, or what are the things that they’re confused about? And helping them along the way, with the content that I write, that’s been a huge source of inspiration, for sure.

Larry:
Nice. And it also just occurs to me that that could even apply. I’m assuming that applies, maybe, mostly with marketing kind of content, or for informational content. But have you even had insights about ways you’re improving your UX writing, based on real life conversation?

Andrea:
Oh yeah, for sure, as well. Even just casual conversations about applications that we like to use, or, when you think about even UX design in real life. I don’t know if you’ve been to a fast food restaurant recently, but they have new screens, a lot of the times now, that you can order.

Andrea:
These are things that we’re engaging with as people, and in our daily lives. So as I’m doing that, or as I’m having conversation with people, that are experiencing the same things, finding out what are the sources of friction, and what are things that annoy us, or delight us? All of that is information that I then use in my work.

Larry:
Right. So, just paying attention to the world.

Larry:
As you’ve been talking, I’ve been thinking about, that different … kind of going back to that, not with the distinguishing between UX copywriting, and what I’m thinking of.

Larry:
Like, a lot of the people I talk with, and a lot of the interest seems to be in just general Web copywriting, which would encompass some of that, marketing materials and content marketing. And also site navigation kind of stuff.

Larry:
But it seems to me … I just want to run, just thinking out loud here, that some of the differences between UX copywriting, and other kinds of copywriting, is that UX copywriting is often for screens or smaller interactions, versus pages full of content. Which kind of gets it like that, micro copy versus macro copy. I don’t know if that’s a thing.

Larry:
But I think the biggest distinguishing thing might be that idea of the UX world mostly being about task accomplishment. Whereas in the marketing, other world, it’s more about, might have a call to action, but it’s really about imparting information, or …

Larry:
Does that make sense, and are there other differences between them?

Andrea:
That’s definitely one of the differences. You know, UX copy is very much action-oriented. Whether it hits you, either right before you’re about to take an action in the middle of one, or at the end, whether in, for example, a success message, or an error message.

Andrea:
So it is tied a lot to our interactions with the Website. Whereas a macro copy, I guess, or just larger pieces of copy are more static, and more, you’re just sort of receiving information. So that is true.

Andrea:
I think it overlaps a little bit when … well, it overlaps, certainly, when you’re thinking about the broad purpose of your copies. So I think even longer forms of copy, or of content, should be pointing towards an action, or should be speaking to people that are in the middle of a decision, either to take action, or that are in the midst of doing something, where they’re seeking information.

Andrea:
And so, there is always this idea that people are moving forward, and how are you helping them move forward? Whether it’s something that’s a little bit more vague, or like a big picture kind of action? Or something that’s very small, like, “Move on to the next screen,” or, “Complete your purchase.”

Andrea:
Other differences, like I mentioned before, are about intention. Now why are people coming to read your longer form story? Your longer form copy might serve to inspire people, whereas your short copy should also inspire people, but it should be more short, and direct.

Larry:
Right. Well, that’s a challenge. I remember my first boss in, when I was an editor, way back in the day, told me that, how’d she say it? “I apologize for writing such a long letter. I didn’t have time to write a short one.” So, I guess the point of that is, is UX copywriting harder than the other kinds of copywriting?

Andrea:
Yes, yes. But I love that. I love the challenge of being succinct, and of choosing just the right word that is accurate, and meaningful. And that’s also understandable by a lot of people.

Andrea:
I think there is this idea that when you’re hired as a writer, that you’re going to get to be super clever, and that everyone’s going to love your jokes, or love your puns. But at the end of the day, you have to keep in mind that you, the purpose has to be to communicate, and if people aren’t understanding you, then you’ve failed.

Andrea:
And so, I think, it’s a delicate balance of being whimsical, and playful, and being delightful, and having personality to your brand’s voice, sort of peppered in with your content. But yeah, being succinct, and short, and being to the point, it’s definitely an art.

Larry:
What I think in this attention deficit world, it’s also a great service to people, to be able to just get to the point. Tell me what to do.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Larry:
Hey, Andrea, I just noticed, we’re coming up on time. I wanted to, I always give my guests a chance at, before we wrap up, is there anything last, anything that I haven’t brought up, or that is just on your mind these days, about content, or copywriting? Or anything in that milieu, that you’d like to share with my folks?

Andrea:
Sure. So many things. I think it’s such an interesting industry to be in right now, and as more and more people are using the Web for their own storytelling purposes, I think it’s a great platform to communicate.

Andrea:
One of the really fun things that I’ve been getting into is, how to make my websites more accessible to people. So I talked about how I love to be clever, and I think using words for wordplay is so much fun, but at the end of the day, I want people to understand me.

Andrea:
And so, one of the ways that UX copywriting has influenced me is making sure that I’m pulling back on the jargon that I use. Making sure that people, that English is their second or third language, can understand what I’m writing, and really keeping a perspective on making sure that what I produce can be understood by the largest audience possible.

Andrea:
And that I’m not alienating people, by my choice of words, or by my tone, or that I’m not shutting people out by the way that I phrase things, or references that might not mean anything to them. And so that’s been a really interesting challenge for me.

Andrea:
And I challenge all copywriters to start investigating more, if they’re not already, what it means to be accessible, and what it means to work that into the way you write.

Andrea:
If you’re also a designer, to work that into the way that you code your content, and the way that you code your websites. But to really make sure, that as an industry, we’re helping people to engage with the Web, and not pushing them away.

Larry:
I love that. That’s one of the best … there was a lot in there, and I just love it. It’s a lot about diversity, and inclusion, and honoring cultural differences.

Larry:
I just want to observe that you live in Montreal, and I wonder if you have a leg up on that, just because you’re … I assume you’re bilingual, and in a pretty multicultural city, does that help you, in that regard?

Andrea:
Absolutely. I grew up bilingual, but you know, everyone speaks two or three languages here, for sure. And I’m working for a company that’s also very international. So that’s something that’s certainly on our mind.

Andrea:
We have people from all over the world as customers, and also in our offices, and so that, is certainly something that’s been on my mind, and as you work in Canada, everything needs to be translated.

Andrea:
So you’re always thinking about, if it’s something that’s too complicated, you’re not going to be able to translate that into French or English, depending on which one you’re writing first. That’s helped me, for sure, to be clearer, and to write in a more international way.

Larry:
Great. Well that’s great. Well, thanks so much, Andrea. It’s been a real pleasure talking with you, and yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Andrea:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Larry:
You bet.