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Elizabeth McGuaneContent designers are word nerds by nature. Like many other craftspeople who are passionately immersed in their work, they can forget to step back and fully articulate what we are doing.
Elizabeth McGuane has addressed this issue for the craft of content design. Her new book, Design by Definition, sets out the linguistic, rhetorical, and grammatical elements of content design and shows how they work together in design projects.
We talked about:
- her work as a UX director at Shopify
- the origins of her book in a talk she delivered at a design leadership conference
- her writing process and how it relates to conversational design
- an overview of the structure of the book
- her transition from content design to design leadership
- the enduring strength of the relationships between visual and words people
- a great story about the utility and importance of metaphor in design work
- the importance of being thoughtful about naming things – and the idea that “words mean things”
- the importance of remaining “unfettered by truisms and by hard and fast rules for yourself that ignore the context of what you’re actually looking at”
- the challenges she faced in writing the chapter on narrative
- her hope that her book both adds to the content-design conversation and expands it beyond our field
Elizabeth’s bio
Elizabeth McGuane is a designer and writer who recently published her first book, Design by Definition (A Book Apart, 2023). She has worked as a content designer for 15 years and now directs large, multidisciplinary design teams that include product designers, developers, researchers and content designers. Elizabeth divides her time between Ontario and Nova Scotia, Canada.
Connect with Elizabeth online
Video
Here’s the video version of our conversation:
Podcast intro transcript
This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 158. Content designers are, by nature, meticulous story crafters and notorious word nerds. For all of our word nerdery, though, we haven’t yet had a book to refer to that sets out the linguistic, rhetorical, and grammatical elements of our craft. In her new book, Design by Definition, Elizabeth McGuane fixes this omission, diving deeply into the intricacies of how to bring clarity and meaning to the textual material that we use to design customer experiences.
Interview transcript
Larry:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 158 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I’m really happy today to welcome to the show Elizabeth McGuane. Elizabeth is a UX Director at Shopify, and she just wrote this brilliant book called Design by Definition, which is mostly what we’ll talk about today. But welcome, Elizabeth, tell the folks a little bit more about what you’re up to these days.
Elizabeth:
Hi, Larry. Really happy to be here. I’ve been at Shopify now for about five years. I’m a UX director there on the mobile app, and we call it the operate team, the admin team. I look after the whole experience of the backend navigation search, things like that, which I kind of love. If you ask me any questions about the deep inner workings of commerce, I will not be able to answer it. If you want to complain to me about how Shopify admin search works, then yes, I am your person. I come from a background in content design. I originally started out writing, working for a newspaper in Dublin, Ireland, which is where … I was born in Ireland and raised in Canada, went back to Ireland for university.
Elizabeth:
Not to give you my whole life story, but I’ve then moved into content design in about 2007. It wasn’t called “content design” then, of course, but I was heavily involved in the origins of content strategy and content design around 2009. Probably not its origins. No, they go back to probably before I was born, but those first conversations that were happening at that time and then was a content designer for a very long time, and Shopify offered me the opportunity to be a UX manager, which I had never been offered before and I have a tendency to follow interesting things where they lead, and so that’s what led me to where I am right now.
Larry:
Nice. Well, I got to say, I love that content folks are migrating into the ranks of UX management now. There should be just as many of us, I would think, as any other of the crafts that feed the work.
Elizabeth:
I agree. Yes, absolutely. The person who hired me, Amy Thibodeau, now head of design at Gusto, was also a content designer, and so she was like, “You can and should do it”, and she’s very convincing, so I went for it.
Larry:
Nice. Hey, one of the things I want to talk about, this will be about four episodes back from this, but I just last night dropped an episode with Donna Lichaw on her book about leadership. I realized in that interview, we started with the origin story of her book, and I don’t always like to start with that because there’s often more interesting things. But in the case of your book, it does make sense to ask you about the origin story. Tell me why that makes sense.
Elizabeth:
This book, I think, had its first seeds in a talk I gave to Intercom’s brand design team back in … I guess it would be like 2014. No, 2017. Time got very elastic thinking about the teens. It feels like yesterday and yet it was a long time ago. I was trying to explain to them what content design was within the product team and I came up with this sort of architecture of what I called the seven lenses of content design, heavily borrowing from Dan Brown. At the time I was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” I’m doing this for 12 years, 13 years at this point and I feel like this is the first time I’ve articulated the whole thing for me. Like, “Oh, this is it. This is all of it.” Which is a constant … this self self-definition of content design was just a constant thing to grapple with.
Elizabeth:
I was leading a content design team, I mean a very, very, very tiny one at that time, and then when I went to Toronto to join Shopify, about a year or two later, I got the opportunity to give a talk about design leadership and design meaning to design leadership conference in Toronto, and decided to kind of take that talk and rework it. It had already been through a few different stand up on a stage narrative things before I gave the talk again at Button in 2020 at the beginning of the pandemic, so it was their first virtual one. Kristina Halvorson, who will be a familiar name to many, and especially in condo design, was like, “You should write a book and you need to write a book and you have to write a book and you should just submit it.” Kateela Duke and Lisa Marie Marquis were at Button that year, obviously virtual, and hosted a kind of you should write a book forum for people who were interested.
Elizabeth:
So they were really looking. I mean, it couldn’t have been more spoonfed to me, “You really should do this. Go and do it. Go and do it.” I just submitted that talk outline that when I had done for Button, and they were like, “Yep, this works.” What was interesting to me after going through those many years of it being a verbal narrative was that I somehow got in front of myself and was like, “Oh no, I have to change it and I have to expand it and I have to move it around.” So I rewrote the book, I think, three times with different narrative structures. In the end, what I came back to is actually really close to the original narrative, which I was like, “The narrative I got up on stage and gave to people was close to the right one.” I kind of overcomplicated myself because I was like, “Book, capital B book is a big scary thing and I need to do something else with it”, and effectively the simplest narrative was the right one.
Larry:
That’s great. One of the reasons I started a podcast is that I’m just natively conversational, but also conversation seems to be emerging. It’s a whole discipline now, conversation design, and it also just seems to be emerging as one of the more dominant paradigms in web communication, kind of digital communication. It’s really interesting that your talk version of it turns out to be the best approach.
Elizabeth:
Enriched and obviously with examples along the way, many, many more examples, but it really was the right approach. I talk about conversational design in the book as well, because my work at Intercom was very much around that space, and I’ve glanced at that space in Shopify a few times, been close to it or helped staff teams who are working on it and haven’t really been able to get close to it again. But I really love it. I think I love it because its content design in its purest form. There’s almost no UI except for the words. Obviously people put cards and widgets in all sorts of things that Intercom’s messenger apps were the last project I was part of before I left that company and that obviously really enriches the messenger experience, but I really love it. It’s linear. It’s in some way human, even if you’re not talking to a human because it is about call and response. There’s a lot that I really love about that space.
Larry:
Nice. One of the things about that too is that that circling back to the original thing, it’s like you had a meaning … One of the things we talked about before we went on the air just now was about the importance of semantics and meaning. I had inferred as I read the book that that seemed like a running theme, even though it wasn’t explicitly stated. It kind of comes back to that origin story of the talk too. No, you had the meaning figured out early on and then you were just not struggling but wrestling with the format that would best suit it. Does that make sense?
Elizabeth:
Yes, it does. I hadn’t seen it that way before, but yes. I think what was a constant push-pull in the book was, so when I gave it as a talk in Toronto specifically, after that talk I had a bunch of people come up to me who were not content designers who really appreciated it, and they said it really resonated with them. It was quite eyeopening and gratifying to me, especially as a pretty newly minted design manager to be told by non-content designers that it was impactful for them. So I really wanted to write something that was about design as a whole and not about just one discipline, but it was of course, every single example I had was about my own work as a content designer and of course my own natural affinity for words meant that I was constantly talking about meaning.
Elizabeth:
So conceptual clarity, concept models, mental models early on in the book. Then very quickly I would start talking about something like naming, which is both about meaning, but also about execution and sometimes more about execution than about meaning, because sometimes the name itself is meaningless and that’s okay. I found that I was constantly grappling with all my own past design decisions and sort of finding that there was a counterpoint to every example that I had, there were no hard and fast rules. It really was about what’s the meaning that you’re trying to convey. But then I would very swiftly get into, “And now we’re talking about narrative and now we’re talking about flow and user journeys and execution”.
Elizabeth:
It was kind of hard to find that line between talking about the underpinnings of something, which I think is what resonated the most with the designers, motion designers and other folks that came to me and talking about the execution of language within an interface, which is obviously my content design background, but I think content design is design. It’s to me content-in-brackets design, and so I kind of decided eventually I had to just lean into it and embrace it.
Larry:
The way you’ve embraced it is in a way that it feels to me like this book is going to be very productive in helping a lot of content designers. I mean, many of us are kind of tired of explaining what we do, but to the extent that we still have to, because I think there’s this understanding and awareness among all of us. We’re all just native word nerds, and we’re just … I think we’re swimming in it, so we have to step out to really look back at it. I think that’s one of the things that this book does, is it gives us ways to say, “Okay, at this point in this design process, this is why a content design background and perspective, and this particular part of it …” Well, basically I’ll just run through, so the book, it starts with ideas, concepts, what do we got here and then gets into understanding the context and understanding around them via metaphors and then naming stuff, and then narrative the biggies that we’re all dealing with all the time.
Larry:
Then I love the communication chapter near the end, that’s kind why you have words is to communicate, and then about change. That’s a quick tour of the book, but like I said at the start, it feels like that’s going to be a really powerful way for content designers to both … because for me, it helped me understand better the work that I do and I’ve been doing this a long time, to both understand better, but to bring other people along. Was that your intent or …
Elizabeth:
It was. I mean, it helped me understand the better the work that I do also. I mean, no better way to understand yourself than to try to write a book about your whole career. It was a means of bringing people along. I’ll try to say this in a way … we can talk about content design in a bit. I will say, not to make this a sort of psychological episode, but I have a lot of guilt in a way about not being called a content designer anymore. It was really part of my self-identity. Amy really had to work hard to convince me to become a design manager. But the thing is that what I’ve realized in becoming a design manager and leading researchers, designers and content designers and technologists is that the work that we share is far greater than the work that we don’t share.
Elizabeth:
The things that we care about are … a designer that reports to me worked on what he called a design quality pyramid and it was a … I would say 80% I was like, “Yeah, this is also content design, structure, hierarchy. Yes, this is also content design.” It wasn’t until you got to the very tippy-top of that pyramid that it was really meaningfully different where he was talking about type and color and use of space. Even then, and I think I say this in the book, to me, I see text now and I think always have as, yes, it’s about the meaning of the words on the screen, but it’s far more about text as material. How does text take up space? If you were a font designer, you’re thinking about text in a different way, and obviously text isn’t the only form of content.
Elizabeth:
I think I’ve tried to see it from a very three-dimensional way and sort of think about the product and the problem and the design execution. You’re going for more than I have, which discipline is doing it. But my hope is that by doing that, you draw attention to the things that people care about. People being the people who hire content designers and the people who hire designers and the users who use those products. They don’t care about the discipline, nor should they. They just care about the product being made. I also realized from my vantage point that a lot of disciplines are in a shaky spot as well as content design. I’m not sort of, yes, being “all design disciplines matter” in a way, but I’m just sort of saying that I try to focus on the work more than the discipline in hopes that that would help more disciplines see themselves in it.
Larry:
It’s interesting the way you describe that pyramid, but it seems like you don’t have to go too deep to find the commonalities, the things that pull you together as design practitioners. Since you had that insight, are you finding in your … because you work with a variety of design practices in your current role. Have you found it easier for folks to find common ground or …
Elizabeth:
I don’t want to say unilaterally. I think selectively, yes. I think that the strongest design relationship that exists, and that has always existed since the ’50s of modern graphic design in the 20th century, is the relationship between a visual and a words person, whether it’s an art director and a copywriter or a graphic designer and a copywriter or a content designer and a visual designer or product designer. I think that that is still true, and I see those relationships around me and when I see them on my own team, which I have a couple of times, I foster them and make sure that if you need to go arm in arm throughout the company now, and you move teams, you should move teams together.
Elizabeth:
I just had a designer and a content designer on my team move to some of Shopify’s sidekick explorations, which is a tool that they’ve just announced in the last week, and had them move over together so that they could continue working together. It’s really wonderful to see those things, but it does feel … I will not say that I as a leader have cracked the code of how to successfully endorse content design and design and research in a way that resonates with executives. I think that’s … my gosh, that’s a really tall mountain. It’s a really, really hard thing to do. I just try to make life for people in my team as good as I can, and I think it helps that they know that I come from their background and understand what they’re going through.
Elizabeth:
Likewise, it’s been really gratifying as a leader to find that the designers I work with are not lacking in insight from me, that they appreciate the insight that I have to give them, that they don’t feel that they’re getting a lesser leadership experience because I’m not a product designer. Quite the opposite. I’ve had many, many deep conversations with them where they’re like, “No …” I mean, A, my design sense is good, but also that the contrast of opinion is really useful.
Larry:
Well, I think variety is the spice of life, and that’s how that can manifest there. I’m loving this part of the conversation, but I want to make sure we get into the word nerdery of this.
Elizabeth:
Yes, of course.
Larry:
Because that to me, I think is the most … that’s what I’m most enamored about with the book, is just your thoughtful explorations of things. Well, one of them, just almost every chapter I’d highlight some great quote. In the very first chapter, you talk about creating a home for an idea as you’re conceptualizing something and figuring out what it is you’re working with, but that’s just one of a bunch of examples. This is almost meta. It’s almost like you were doing your word nerdery on your word nerdery. Does that make sense?
Elizabeth:
Yes. Absolutely.
Larry:
I think the concept chapter, that’s interesting. You talk about how to catch an idea, what are we working with here? But I think to me, the second chapter, when you start talking about metaphor, I think that’s when it gets into maybe more of the things that people deal with day to day. Does that make sense? That’s where the need for a tool like metaphor comes into play because you have to start figuring out how to explain or contextualize what you’re talking about.
Elizabeth:
Absolutely. That was the most fun chapter to write. The hardest chapter, funnily enough, was the naming chapter, which I think was probably the heart of the book, probably because … you know that weird thing where you know it so well that for some reason you kind of skim over the details, because you’re like, “Oh yeah, everybody will understand this,” and then my editors have to be like, “No, you need to put more into this.” But the metaphor chapter was the most fun, and I think has my favorite example, which is from a content designer named Marta Masters who’s like … I think after I heard this story, I was like, “You’re a genius.” She was . . . working on a data product with her … if we have time for the story, I can tell.
Larry:
Absolutely.
Elizabeth:
She was working on a data product. So just imagine, effectively it was an analytics report dashboard, and it effectively looked like a little spreadsheet, and it was difficult for people to understand, and their users were not particularly … these were not Excel wonks who were happy and wanted the facility of working with a spreadsheet, and they wanted something that lifted the experience, made it more easy to understand at a glance. They were in a room together for, I don’t know, a couple of days, and they kept designing, as you said, better spreadsheets, prettier spreadsheets, spreadsheets with more space. They couldn’t get away from that idea of rows and columns.
Elizabeth:
To me, it’s like the metaphor of the spreadsheet is incredibly powerful, and they were locked in. To me that is finding a home for an idea is as much kind of finding a new platform or a level for yourself to get to as a designer to say, “We want to go in this direction and not that.” The thing is, there are so many different metaphors you could choose from, but we get so locked into one way of thinking without even realizing it. I think that was the really powerful thing for me about those first two chapters is it’s just about realizing where you are in the idea and realizing that the grip, the language that you used to describe a concept is holding you in and how much it is attaching you to a certain metaphor.
Elizabeth:
Marta, I love this story, went to lunch and she was like, “What is another thing that has a container, but then the things inside that container change day to day and can make the actual container feel very different from day to day so it’s not always just rows and columns?” She looked down at her plate and she was eating a sandwich and she was like “A sandwich.” So she went back to the room that afternoon and I think what I really loved about the story is it wasn’t like they called this the sandwich publicly. It wasn’t a public name. It really was just a vehicle for the idea, and it was a vehicle that everyone used. She said both the engineers felt more free to sketch with them because it was a fun concept to play around with and they didn’t feel like, “Oh, we’re not designers, we can’t draw”, and they were a little bit more reticent to participate before that. They were doing crazy eights and other drawing exercises, I think.
Elizabeth:
Then designers obviously loved it, were able to riff on in all sorts of new directions, but also the product managers used it as a vehicle to explain the product direction to their executive team and to their stakeholders. They called it sandwich science, and they made a whole thing out of it internally, and it got a lot more attention and eyeballs on it. I’m like, “Oh, that’s gold dust, that kind of idea.” It’s silly and fun and yet that’s what communicating as human beings should be like. We are able to turn ideas on their heads and come up with new ways of describing things that wake us up. I think that’s what that idea did, is it woke up her team and it woke her up, and it helps her to work on it as well.
Larry:
A great reminder that you never know where you’re going to find inspiration. I’m going to eat lunch differently from now on. But that also reminds me, though, as you talk about that, it reminds me of some of the subsequent stuff in both the … more the naming chapter about once you understand what you’ve got, the concepts you’re working with and what they are and how they work together and where you’re at, that naming thing is … I think you talk about there’s some places that try to be almost pedantic about calling it the same … whatever the entity is, calling it the same name throughout, versus sometimes it makes sense to call something different in different contexts. Am I remembering that right?
Elizabeth:
Yeah. I mean, this is a phrase that interestingly, actually, my Intercom friends, colleagues, former colleagues on … well, I can’t call it Twitter now, but on Twitter, when the book came out, we’re talking about phrases they remembered from when I was a content designer there and one of them was “words mean things,” which apparently there was an emoji. I do have that as a subheading in the book as an Easter egg to them, because I kept saying that words do mean things, you have to think about what you’re saying, but also the same language from code to customer was another one. But actually that wasn’t me. That was the engineers on the team, I think, or at least maybe it was us in conversation with each other. The engineers in that company were incredibly inviting to me, and actually, I think I was hired as their first content designer because the engineers were like, “We need someone to come and help us with naming and concepts”, and I’m like, “I love that.”
Elizabeth:
That should happen everywhere. Who cares more about recall and files and folders and naming then engineers? Engineers and content designers on paper should have the strongest relationship of all, and I think that’s something to really foster. But yes, that was a concept and what we realized very early on, I think, was it’s really, really hard to do, and that is actually where the change chapter comes in, which is that as a product evolves, you cannot go back into your code base and relabel everything. It just doesn’t make any sense. You have to free the product from the base inside of it. Of course, ideally you want it to be this pure and perfect thing that is semantically accurate at all layers and all levels. Of course, you can start out doing that, but you can’t let that hold you back. You can’t let previous designs decisions hold you back from the future.
Elizabeth:
You’re right. I also talk about contexts and names maybe needing to be slightly different, or at least labels needing to be slightly different to different contexts. A lot of what I talk about honestly is just being unfettered by truisms and by hard and fast rules for yourself that ignore the context of what you’re actually looking at. Because I find that, and I believe this about a lot of things, I have become a complete radical about even things I believed in before the Oxford comma and use of full stops and periods. Text is material. Text in an interface is not the same as text in prose and you have to be able to think about it in a more fluid way. That goes from naming things, labeling things, punctuation, all of it. You have to be a renegade, and you have to be willing to do things that you would never do in a piece of writing that you are creating elsewhere.
Larry:
Now, I’m hoping you have one of those online T-shirt shops with “words mean things” and “text as material,” because those are both super memorable and I think super helpful. Hey, but I want to jump to … I don’t want to get out of here without talking about the narrative chapter. I think you call it ideas, journeys and stories, because that, to me, that’s … in many ways that’s the meatiest part of this in the sense that it gets at the overarching narrative of what all’s going on there, articulating your user’s needs as stories. There seems like there’s a lot in there. Was that a hard chapter to write or …
Elizabeth:
It was a really hard chapter to write. It was the one that really meant a lot to me and resonated with me, but then I think was difficult. I worked with a lot of insanely good editors at A Book Apart put this book together. They are phenomenal at supporting writers in producing the best book possible. But you talked to a lot of different people in the process of doing that. So I found I was explaining it over and over again. They were like, “I get this part and this part and I get categories and I get journeys, but I don’t get how it all works together.” I think the thing that meant so much to me was that the internet is three-dimensional. Well, it’s four-dimensional and so the stories are not just like I have a screen and I move from one screen to another and that is a journey, which is how most of us, when we design user journeys and we put them in Figma, that’s what we look at is the two-dimensional experience.
Elizabeth:
But narrative is created three-dimensionally through words alone by the categories we give something in information architecture, both visible information architecture in a navigation menu, but also the architecture that exists in search, for example, how things are categorized in Shopify, like commerce menus. Those are all forms of narrative because they basically say … and actually honestly, the CEO of Shopify says this about navigation. It’s one of the reasons I’ve liked working on navigation problems there. He’s like, “It’s the story of the business”, and I’m like, “Yes, that is what navigation is.” It’s the story of the business as well as it being a literal means to move around the space. In this day of keyboard optimized navigation as well …
Elizabeth:
On Slack, for example, I never actually use my menu. I just use my keyboard and I know in my head where I need to go because I have internalized my own Slack narrative that I have created, and I know where everything is. I think that’s a really powerful thing, is how do you move through space? It’s by remembering concepts. It’s by remembering groups and remembering categorizations and how those categorizations are related to each other. You’ll even find that on Slack with the naming conventions you start to use organically as a social group, is that people will immediately be like, “No, no, no, you’ve got to use the same pattern, because that’s how my brain is remembering the story of where I need to go in my day.” That’s really powerful.
Elizabeth:
Then there’s the kind of nefarious side of this, which is advertising and how it’s served to us is not served to us by somebody in a Facebook ad manager going, “I want to send this ad to Elizabeth”, or “I want to listen into Elizabeth conversation about …” I don’t know, linen T-shirts or whatever it is and that I get served on Instagram all the time. It is because I’m part of a group, I’m part of a category in that tool. So we are known by our categorization and we are advertised to by our categorization. So understanding that the stories that tells is really, really powerful. Even if you think about how AI works and how large language models work, which I am only … I got to work on a nascent version of that at Intercom. I’m very fascinated by it, but I’m not working directly in it.
But it really is about pattern recognition. All of it is about pattern recognition. It goes from the group level down to the parts of speech level. I mean, you can’t get more word nerdy than that. It was the most fascinating chapter to write, but it has so many strands. It was hard to contain.
Larry:
Maybe there’s a whole other … not to pressure you, but maybe there’s a whole other book there. Hey, I can’t believe it, Elizabeth. We’re already coming up close to time, but I always like to give my guests … I just want to say before we wrap that everybody should go out and get this book because it is so great, and we’ve only really scratched the surface of it here. I don’t usually plug stuff, but I have to plug this one because it’s … Anyhow, it’s for us. So thank you. But is there anything last before we wrap up that you want to make sure we share with the folks?
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Well, I mean, putting this book together was hugely, hugely gratifying and speaking to the content design community, I think I know that it is a tough time for the discipline right now. I really hope that there are many, many good books about content design, many that I admire and revere and have read throughout my career. I hope that this can kind of add to the conversation and that it can give people maybe some means to show people the value of the work that they do and to show people the value of understanding design semantically. That’s really why I wrote it. Whether that person calls themselves as a content designer or not, whether they’re a designer who is like, “Oh no, this is an unlocked part of my brain or something that I didn’t label or know or consciously think about, and now I can label and know and consciously think about it.”
Elizabeth:
Because I really believe that if we open the doors to more people who love writing and who love meaning and welcome them in, it becomes less like “How do we safeguard content design?” and more “How can we allow more people to embrace words?” I mean, I suppose as a multifaceted design leader, that’s where I’d like things to go. I would love things to be more inclusive, but I really do hope that content designers also see themselves in the book.
Larry:
No, and as you say that, you’re reminding me of my mission as a podcaster, which is to democratize content strategy, and that’s a thousand percent aligned with that. I think it’s also very pragmatic given, like you said, about the challenges we face. There’s always been plenty of people besides content designers creating words and crafting stories. I’m glad that they get to read this as well.
Larry:
One very last thing, Elizabeth, what’s the best way, if folks want to follow you online or get in touch, how can they connect?
Elizabeth:
I’m still everywhere, including on X. I was considering deleting it, but I am still there because when you publish a book is probably not a good time to cut off part of your audience if there’s … I have no idea if stuff I post gets seen there, but who knows? So I’m there. I’m emcguane, E-M-C-G-U-A-N-E, on most channels. I do post a lot on LinkedIn right now. So contact me on LinkedIn, send me a message if you want to chat, or you can follow me on Twitter and also on Medium. Basically the same handle everywhere and you can get me in most of those places, including Threads.
Larry:
Oh, excellent. Well, thank you so much.
Elizabeth:
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
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