Jane Ruffino: Archaeology, Language, and Content Design – Episode 139

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Content strategy work is largely about language and how people use it. So to do our best work, we need to have a strong understanding of the language ecosystems we navigate.

Jane Ruffino comes to content strategy and design with a background in archaeology. She shows how practices that archaeologists use to understand how different cultures name and label things can be applied to content work.

We talked about:

• her work as a consultant helping content and design orgs with training and enablement
• her UX writing course at the Berghs School of Communication
• the development of the fields of UX writing and content design
• how she thinks about her content design practice
• the connections between her archaeology study and her work in media
• her belief that “there’s no better skill than field reporting when it comes to content design”
• the role and importance of story
• how her field research insights inform her content design work
• the importance of understanding language ecosystems as you name things
• the challenge of trying to fit a holistic practice like content into a box

Jane’s bio

Jane Ruffino is a content designer, UX writer, strategist, and researcher. With her content design studio, Character, she helps clients of all sizes use language to shape products and services their customers will love. Her professional experience includes documentary production, journalism, content strategy, adult education, and design practice. Jane is a frequent speaker and workshop facilitator for in-house teams, and at conferences and events around the world. She’s also completing a PhD in the contemporary archaeology of the undersea fiber optic cable network. She lives in Stockholm, Sweden, with her partner, their daughter, and a delightfully lazy dog.

Connect with Jane online

• LinkedIn
• email: jane at characterworks dot co

Video

Here’s the video version of our conversation:

Podcast intro transcript

This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 139. Before you can design content or craft a content strategy, you have to truly understand the language ecosystem you’re operating in. One way to approach this is like an archaeologist. That’s how Jane Ruffino works. She’s academically trained as an archaeologist, and she’s an accomplished UX writer and content design practitioner and teacher. It’s fun and instructive to watch her make the connections between these two seemingly disparate disciplines.

Interview transcript

Larry:
Zoom. Hey everyone, welcome to episode number 139 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I am really excited today to welcome to the show Jane Ruffino. Jane is a content design consultant who focuses on training and enablement around the practice. She’s also a contemporary archeologist, which is, I think, maybe a unique thing that she can say about herself in this field. But anyhow, welcome Jane. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you’re up to these days.

Jane:
Yeah, hi. Thank you so much. So yeah, I’m based in Stockholm, Sweden, as you can probably hear from my accent, I was not born in this country. And yeah, I work a lot with… I really specialize in kind of training and enablement, going in and helping people to solve a problem. Do they need to set up a practice? Do they need to establish foundations, training designers to make better content decisions, training writers to think designers, things like that.

Jane:
And trying to help companies solve their own problems, so sometimes I do that with hands-on work. Sometimes I do that… I’ve been doing more kind of solution-focused workshops. Tell me the problem, we’ll bring your team together and try to solve it together. So that’s pretty fun. And then I also have been, for the last three and a half years, teaching a 12-week UX writing course through Berghs School of Communication here in Stockholm. It’s online, so that’s been really fun. It’s a live course and I really enjoy it. And halfway through… Not halfway, almost halfway through my seventh run of it, which is kind of wild.

Larry:
Oh wow, that’s quite a run. Because one of the things I wanted to talk about right away is you’re right in the middle of this crazy growth in this profession we’re in, the rise of content design and UX writing. It seems to have… I mean, it’s been around for a while, but it seems to have come out of nowhere in the last three or four years, which kind of corresponds to the time period you were just talking about. Tell me your perspective of this kind of explosive growth we’ve seen.

Jane:
Yeah, I mean, it’s really weird because I’ve been working in content strategy for a pretty long time, but kind of picking up scraps where I could. The projects were quite small and you took what you could. And then maybe four or five years ago I was like, there weren’t any jobs. There were very few jobs in Stockholm for UX writing, which only became a thing. And I was like, I don’t want to use that term. I’m a content strategist. And I was like, fine, I’ll use that term, and maybe I’m a content designer and whatever. And I sort of had to make this conscious choice to become a consultant on purpose instead of freelancing until I found a job because I thought, this is going to take a long time to take off. It’s cool, I’m glad. And then I was approached by Berghs to develop this course, and I had taught content strategy and web communications like 2009, 2010, quite early, back when I lived in Ireland.

Jane:
And I thought I would love to be teaching again. This is great. And they hired me to develop this course and I got to build it from scratch. And at the time, it was very few people had really heard of UX writing. And my first run of the course we had five students and people were very kind of… The field was so different, people were pretty far from it. And one of the great things is the course kicked off the week COVID lockdown started, but then also the field took off. And so what I’ve been really witnessing is we have been running, I’ve been running the Stockholm meetup and I’ve been doing live events, in-person events before that. And it was like they were pretty well attended, but there’s a lot of interest in the field. But then it’s like the field took off so fast and I think what’s been so fascinating to me is that because everybody was online all the time and for everything, it kind of took off in this global way.

Jane:
So we actually had a very legitimate global community and I think it’s very different from how a lot of other fields have developed. And as a result, there’s been a lot more global conversation about what should we call ourselves, what do we do? What is legitimate content strategy, what is content design? What is UX writing? And actually, in a way, I think it’s great because it’s meant that our field has coalesced and now we finally get paid a little better. But at the same time, I think there’s been less ability to dig into what things are regionally, because previously it’s like… So there’s less appreciation of regional cultures, of this. But the other thing with the course is a lot of other course directors can run the same course over and over again. I’m like, nope, I’ve got to keep up with the field. So this run of the course, I was like, this field is developing way too quickly without enough information architecture in it.

Jane:
So I like crammed a whole module of trying to fit everything I think people need to know about information architecture into one module. So it’s like the field is changing so much and so fast that I’m really trying to keep up with it. And I think that that’s amazing. And the students are much higher level, like now I’m getting people… I think one of the really promising things is I’m getting people coming in who are design leads and product managers and people coming in going, “I want to learn how to work better with content people.” And I feel like that’s a really good sign. It’s a really good sign that people are like, I’m going to take this course that is not cheap and it’s not… It’s pretty intensive – in order to be better at working with this new discipline. And I actually think that’s pretty amazing.

Larry:
That’s fantastic. I had not heard of that dynamic. You hear, occasionally, about content designers moving into product and UX leadership roles and research and things like that, but that the interest from outside, coming in and studying our stuff, I love that.

Jane:
Yeah, it’s great.

Larry:
Yeah. The other thing in there, those students are so interesting too. Like you said, sounds like the kind of rising tide thing going on, the quality and the caliber of the students is going up as well. Has that changed how you teach? I mean, there’s two things going on, both the students are changing and the field is changing. How do you keep up?

Jane:
Yes and no. It’s changed how I deliver the material to some degree. Now it’s like I would never say the caliber… The caliber was always high, it was just there was more range in terms of where people were working and what their backgrounds were and how much UX experience they had. But the way that it’s like, so for example, I always have designers or researchers and I can then go, hey, we’re doing the research module. Can you talk? I can actually hand the floor to students a bit more. But what hasn’t changed is the way that I teach is I know that everybody is coming in… This kind of brings us to another thing I know we wanted to talk about. I know that people are coming in no matter… And I’m nervous right before I get the list of students and all their backgrounds, and I’m like, oh, they’re so impressive.

Jane:
They’re going to see right through me. And I’m like, no, I’ve been teaching for so many years and I know and I know myself. Everybody is so nervous when they come in. And I’m like, I know it’s a professional development course, but people are… And it’s much more terrifying, the more senior you are and the older you are, the harder it is to walk into a learning space and make yourself vulnerable. So I do this thing where I have a video that they watch before the class starts and I put it in and I’m like, hey, you might be googling under the table because that’s what we all do. Welcome to UX.

Jane:
And then I also write them a thing. It’s just like, I know that a lot of you reading this are nervous and you think you’re the only one who’s nervous. And I write them this kind of empowering thing where it’s like you’re all bringing so many pieces with you and no one has all the pieces. So you’re here and you’re going to see people have pieces you don’t have, but you have pieces they don’t have. And that’s what makes this course so cool. And that’s what makes this group so great. And I know that it matters to people because they tell me, and I’m glad it matters, because to me, that’s my leadership style is very… I took the BuzzFeed quiz and I am Ted Lasso, 100%.

Larry:
As you’re talking about putting all the pieces together and working with these increasingly diverse and accomplished people, that kind of points to the growing importance of collaboration in what we do. That that’s like that… Because I come out of publishing and journalism and a lot of people in this field do, and there’s not like tormented geniuses, but there used to be more individual initiative. And now it’s like pretty much nothing happens without collaboration. Is that part of what you’re teaching in there? Or the way you just described how you engage people, seems like a first step there, you must do other stuff as well?

Jane:
Yeah, and I mean, I put them in groups and I actually make the groups based on… A lot of it’s based on time zones, but it’s like who has skills that will complement each other? Who’s going to be able to bring something to each other? And I think a lot about… And this is when you start thinking about what is content and what it is we actually need to take care of. It’s like everything. And I was reading yesterday because I was working… I was using it in my PhD dissertation, this project about, I don’t know, 2010, 2011, there’s an industrial designer named Thomas Thwaites. And he did a project, an experiment to try to build a toaster from scratch. And it was sort of a way to comment on this kind of post, it’s a globalized world, where no one can make anything by themselves.

Jane:
I mean, it was a reference, it was from a Douglas Adams novel about how nobody… Everybody knew how to make a sandwich but didn’t know how to make a toaster. And it’s such an interesting thing because I was like, this is, number one, related to what I’m researching for my research, but also it’s really content on product development that’s like no one can do it all. So the only way is collaboration, and nobody should walk in and feel… Like everyone’s going to feel all the things they’re missing. And I think that’s really important is how do you get people to work together and accept that you’re trying to build a toaster. And one person knows how to make the pop-up thing work well, and the other one knows how to get iron ore. Yeah.

Larry:
Right. And I love that your alumni, there’s probably a secret language about toasters that they use at cocktail parties or something that we’re all just like, what the heck are they talking about?

Jane:
I haven’t used the toaster reference yet. I use a lot of other references, but yeah, I will be using the toaster reference on this course.

Larry:
One thing I want to make sure we get to, because all of this education that you do and all of this getting people together, it’s all in service to the practice. And that’s the whole point is to develop better UX writers and content designers. And you’ve done this a lot, as well as taught it. Tell me, do you have an approach or how do you think about your practice?

Jane:
I think about… One of the really good things about the field kind of coalescing and having established ways of working and frameworks and tools is… And those are great and they’re really important, but we also kind of lose something in that. And that is that we are content people and we’ve always had to be really scrappy. And to me, I think being scrappy and being able to go, okay, what have I got in front of me and what can I do with this? What am I looking at? It’s a really big driver of how I work. So it’s just being realistic about what you can achieve. And my original… My master’s degree is in archeology. And when I was training as a field archeologist when I was in Ireland, I mean, you just go out in the middle… And this was before digital maps, it was a long time ago.

Jane:
You go out in the field with a paper map that’s being rained on and you try to find the things and then you knock on a lot of doors and then you go to the pub and you just are following… And then when I moved into the next phase of my career, what I realized was I was very into the knocking, sitting in the pub, talking to people, getting their stories, getting them to tell me, what are you looking at? What am I looking at? What is this? Tell me about this. Is going into media production, and was a little bit of TV research and made some of my own radio features. And it was just really fun, because it was just scrappy. You just show up somewhere and you have to figure it out. You go in there with what you story you think you’re going to tell, and then you get there and it’s not that story.

Jane:
So you find the story that’s there, you find the person who can find the person, who can find the person who has the piece of information you need. And it’s so analog. And I really love that. And I actually think it’s the best training for content design research, also for storytelling, for synthesizing information. I mean, it’s just amazing training, both the archeological kind of being able to interpret what you’re looking at and sort through things and try to figure out how things got the way that they are. But I also always applied the same approach to when I made radio as well. So I think that’s carried through, that’s been the thread through my whole career, just being scrappy, trying to stand there or sit there and ask somebody how did this thing get this way? And I think it’s just the most important. And it is… So there’s a few levels of the archeologist in me as a content person because how did this get this way is the most valuable question that I have in my practice.

Larry:
I’m revisiting every content audit I’ve ever done now, thinking about those artifacts I discovered. And the way you described that, it’s about artifacts and people. And in the case of archeology, it’s like whatever that thing, tool or gadget you discovered. And in the case of content it’s like, well, here’s how we’re solving that information problem. And before we went on the air, we were talking a little bit and you said there’s something about… To what you just said there’s no better skill than field reporting when it comes to content design that that’s just… Yeah

Jane:
I was having a conversation with another content strategy friend recently, and I was like, I wish I had worked at a local paper. I feel like there’s nothing else. You’re covering the town council, the local sports day and police corruption. You have to move between all these different registers. And with archeology, with content, with all these things, it’s not about the stuff, it’s about the people. Ultimately, the artifacts don’t matter. The process of inquiry matters. What you do with the information matters, the stuff doesn’t matter. I mean, in archeology, we’re always trying to downplay our focus on shiny things. And my research is not shiny at all. And in a way it’s like I study the contemporary world. So I actually end up doing quite similar things, it’s like I’m studying the archeology of the undersea fiber optic network, and I’m sort of trying to bring attention to the fact that the internet is a place and a thing and it’s made up of things.
And that is really fascinating to me. And also, in a way with content, it’s like there’s all these things, there’s all people, there are all these constraints. Decisions don’t just happen. And I think being able to stand back and go, what happened? How did this get this way? It also removes a lot of judgment. I might think in my head, wow, this content is a little crap, but that doesn’t help anything. How did this get this way helps me go, what were the constraints then? What was tried, what didn’t work? What do you think we can do?

Larry:
That’s so interesting because that’s… An archeologist would never judge a culture on, “that’s a stupid way to make a hammer.” You wouldn’t do that. So bringing that same kind of curiosity and empathy to content discovery, that just sounds awesome.

Jane:
Yeah, I mean, I use so many of the same skills, but I think it’s also that, and we were talking about this a bit before and it’s like, I don’t think there’s anything unique about bringing an archeological perspective to content. I think the difference, what they have in common, is that once you open up your awareness of archeology, not having to be a ruin, not having to be abandoned, because that’s the essence of contemporary archeology is that ruination is like a fetish. And so once you move beyond it, you can be like, oh, everything is archeology. And in a way, and then it sort of messes you up for a while. And then it’s the same with content where you’re like, ah, everything is content. Because of that and the varied backgrounds that people from this discipline have, it’s like whatever the background you have, you’re going to bring a perspective because everything is content. So what is your background? Bring it, because it matters.

Larry:
It’s funny as you’re talking, I’m a reminded of… Not that… I usually don’t promote my podcast in the middle of it, but I recently had on Torrey Podmajersky, who asserts that everything is content and can prove it. And we had a great conversation about that. So there’s more evidence for years. Also, when you talked a minute ago about wishing you’d had a chance to do local journalism, I also had Jonathan McFadden on a few weeks ago.

Jane:
Oh, he’s so cool.

Larry:
He’s so awesome. And he used to be a journalist. He’s got all these great journalism stories. And you can see, to what you’re saying, I’m going to go back and listen to those episodes again now because there’s some thread. And I wonder if the three of you are unearthing some kind of universal truth about content design practice in the skills that you bring and how you’re doing stuff. Does that make sense, or?

Jane:
Yeah. No, I think so, because I think it’s, you’re ultimately, the storytelling piece is important because there’s people living the story of their lives. There’s the story of the product, there’s the kind of story of the onboarding experience, all of these different things. But you have to be able to understand people as they are and not as you wish that they were. And I think understanding how messy and complicated people are, the more time you’ve spent having to do that in a non-judgmental manner. I made a documentary once about the Irish property crash, and I was really frustrated by the way that the story was being told, because of course it was greed and overconfidence and all these things, and I was just like, but the picture of greedy bankers does not fit rural Ireland as I know it. So I just went to this place that had a really bad problem of abandoned half-finished housing estates and homes, and I just walked around, I was like, what happened?

Jane:
Tell me what happened. And I interviewed property developers and I was like, you have to understand you’re not being absolved here. I just want to know what happened. And it was so interesting because it was a much more nuanced picture. They still shouldn’t have built all those things, but it was like, oh, well, of course we knew it wouldn’t last, but for the first time, our kids when they grew up didn’t have to leave the countryside. And it was just like, it’s just understanding that is really valuable. And it helped me to go, okay, now I have a better understanding of what happened. I still think it was a terrible idea and you were wrong to do it, but it’s just having to develop a nuanced perspective and you also have to stay close to your subject without getting too involved. These people are often very, very nice to you and you’re like, that’s great. I’m so glad. But we’re not best friends.

Larry:
That’s the journalist’s dilemma. Yeah. And as you’re talking about that, I’m thinking about the… Unlike an archeologist, you can’t go back and change things. A content designer has some agency and influence going forward about the content that happens in the future. How do you take those insights that you’ve done with your kind of field research methods and turn them into actionable content plans?

Jane:
I mean, it’s a lot of just getting the realistic picture. For me, it’s mostly about establishing a baseline or going, does this constraint still exist? Was this decision made because we were using a platform that we’re no longer using, or a third party service that we’re no longer using? And I think that’s where it’s like, yeah, the difference is in archeology, you develop all of these insights and then you just write it up and present it and there’s nothing you can do about it. But at least, and it’s like just all of the inputs matter, and you can just making better decisions, really, and being able to give people decisions that will work for them.

Larry:
Hey, one thing, I just was looking at my notes and I want to make sure I get this in, because when we were corresponding before, you said, “Be sure to ask me about stone axes and elf darts.” So now I have to ask.

Jane:
Okay. So I have this workshop that I love doing and I’m always wary, I’m always worried because it’s weird, it gets weird. And it’s kind of on naming and terminology, but it’s not naming as in brand, it’s naming as in defining concepts. And it’s about language ecosystems and about how when you create terminology, it’s part of an ecosystem. It’s not just think of a word for this thing, and really understanding information architecture of the way I define it is where am I and what are all these things is the short version. And I use this approach where I have everybody has to be an alien archeologist and they’ve come to earth and they’re encountering objects from the modern world. And I go through how do we interpret archeological objects? You pick it up, let’s say, and I don’t excavate anymore. I try to tag along when I, but I haven’t managed to.

Jane:
But you find an object and you look at it and you don’t just like go this is this thing. You actually have to go, what is it made of? How big is it? You really have to spend a lot of time just describing it and listing the characteristics. And then you can place it in a category, then you can place it in a typology. Then you can place it in and maybe it fits with other objects and maybe it kind of fits with this one, kind of fits with this one. Sometimes it’s arbitrary, but you’ve got to make a decision. And one of the reasons that I use this is, so a stone ax, and I use this example from the Irish Neolithic, the late Stone Age. And there’s these beautiful stone axes. I just love them. They’re really pretty. They’re made of this type of stone called porcellanite.

Jane:
And I use this as an example. And I say, this is a stone ax. Why do we know it’s a stone ax? We know ax is a very old word, but this ax is over 5,000 years old, older than that even. We have no idea what people called them. And so by giving it the name “stone ax,” we delimit its meaning to being a thing that chops, because we’ve decided that’s what it does. So then we’ve decided it doesn’t do all these other things, which is necessary when you’re working with information architecture, you have to delimit the meaning of the thing so that people understand the concept. And it fits in with the archeologists’ vision of these are stone axes, these are spearheads, these are arrowheads, this is a clay pot, this is this. So, but before, say, the 18th century, when people found… And this wasn’t just like I have a whole thing on respecting people’s beliefs about the landscape, respecting people’s forms of knowledge, that multiple forms of knowledge can coexist.

Jane:
So I actually think things like fairies and things like that are really cool and fascinating and we should be really respectful of them. But people had, they would come up, all these stone objects would turn up when they were farming or digging because they’re everywhere. And they were described as “elf darts,” they were the lightning bolts or they were from battles between elves. And as a result, when people found them, they might use them to cure your headache or something because it was an elf dart. And so the name you give something and the ecosystem that it belongs to, and in this case, it’s like another world that’s entered your world, gives us all of the objects different names and different functions and different purposes.

Jane:
And so when you name things, you define their purpose and you also say what they’re not. And you have to do that. But by naming it like a stone ax, we kind of lose something because we’re deciding, we’re interpreting. Names are always interpretive and they can’t not be. So it’s just a way of showing these are two completely the exact same objects that belong to totally different ecosystems that even contain different things in them. And that’s kind of a story that I tell in that workshop. So now if you do book that workshop, I’ve totally spoiled it for you, so don’t tell anyone else.

Larry:
Okay, mum’s the word. Well, I do have some listeners to this podcast, so it might get out. But I love that story because it comes up… This issue of language just comes up constantly in our profession. I’ve come across a number of social media posts and other blog posts and things like that where people are saying, just don’t name it. Just describe it, understand it, and work with it as it is. And because you’re just getting yourself into trouble if you try to name it-

Jane:
Yeah, just don’t name. Like if you get away… But even if you don’t name it, you have to define the noun that it is. You have to know in your mind, what is the concept here? Where is the space that I’m in? What is the world that I’m building? And so if you have a clear concept of the world that you’re building, yeah, everything doesn’t need a name.

Larry:
One of the other… So as you said that, I was thinking of another concept that seems relevant here is that notion of boundary objects, things that are called something different from different domains looking at it. You’re nodding, is that-

Jane:
Yeah, no, totally. And it’s like even in… I mean, even in content and design, I think it’s hung us up a little bit, because there are processes that we bring from content into design that are the same, but designers call them something else. And in some ways it’s caused us to think, well, maybe it’s a different thing because they don’t seem to be listening to me about it because they… I think it’s caused some of this vague space where a lot of conflict can take place, because people are doing the same thing and they’re calling it something different because it comes from both practices, because it’s just an important piece of the process of creating a thing. So yeah, no, I think that’s really important. And of course, I mean, it happens all the time in archeology. And the opposite happens where it’s like, okay, this type of object is called a stone ax everywhere in the world. And it’s like, why? There’s always some-

Larry:
Interesting.

Jane:
Some team of overfunded, white dudes – sorry – who are always trying to come up with a universal taxonomy for all archeological objects. And it’s like, stop. Let things have regional names. This is a very colonizing project. Can you stop? But yeah, no, and I think that’s really interesting. I really enjoy helping people think differently about terminology, about interpretation, about the process.

Larry:
I really appreciate that because like I said, it comes up all the time and your perspective, I think, I’m going to steal this archeological perspective and look at it. Hey Jane, I can’t believe it. We’re already… I’m sorry, say that again.

Jane:
Okay, do you want to know where it came from?

Larry:
Okay, where did it come?

Jane:
Okay, so one quick thing, it came from, I used to do archeology workshops with kids. In my old university, we had a teaching collection of objects that had just been randomly found, so we could just use them. So I used to take them to school kids, and I didn’t want to present archeology as a viable career option because it’s not. So I thought it’s really valuable, but I roped a friend in and we have this sort of justice perspective of believing that you are allowed to interpret the world is an important thing, and archeology can be a tool for giving kids, especially kids from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds, a feeling that the world belongs to them too. So that was our approach.

Jane:
But the way we did it was like I brought in a bunch of objects from my house or I would empty out my handbag and I’d go, you can know anything you want about me, but you have to ask questions and you have to pretend you don’t know the name of any of these objects. And then I would write the questions on the board and then I would be like, great. And then I would hand out all these stone and bronze tools to these kids and be like, you just did archeology and now you can apply the same questions to these things. And it was really fun, and I actually kind of ended up developing it into this content workshop that I do. Yeah.

Larry:
Very cool. I love this. And I think my intent here is just to get people advancing their practice, and I think you’ve given us some really good little new ways to think about stuff, so I appreciate that.

Jane:
I hope so.

Larry:
We’re almost at time, these always go way too quickly. And I can think of five other conversations I want to have, but is there anything last… Before we wrap up, is there anything that came up that you want to circle back to or just want to make sure we share before we wrap up?

Jane:
I think it’s one of the things that I think about a lot is that one of the problems we have as content people is that content is a holistic practice, and we’re always trying to fit it in a box so that we can sit at the right table with the designers instead of being like, maybe we need to create our own spaces. But I also think one of the problems that we have is that content is leadership work. And I think it’s one reason why we’re always so tired, that it’s the emotional labor of getting people on board and keeping them engaged. And it’s like, oh, that’s actually leadership work.

Jane:
And wherever we are, we are trying to do things that… We’re torn between these two places of how do we fit ourselves in the box so we can sit at the table, but actually in order to do the work we really want to do that we know that we need to do well, we shouldn’t be in a box. We shouldn’t like, yes, okay, sit at the table, whatever. But it’s like, I think it’s a holistic practice and I think that’s really important. And I think that maybe I need… I mean, I need to remind myself that everything is content. So what is content, what isn’t content isn’t a very helpful question.

Larry:
If everything is content, yeah, it’s kind of a pointless question. I love that. Hey, and one very last thing, Jane, what’s the best way for folks to stay in touch if they want to follow you on social media or connect?

Jane:
I would say find me on LinkedIn. I’m the least annoying on LinkedIn and… Yeah, other platforms are like jokes, dunks on Elon Musk, pictures of my kid, but I’m probably most professionally interesting on LinkedIn, to that extent at all.

Larry:
We’ll share your LinkedIn profile in the show notes.

Jane:
Thank you so much for having me. It was so nice to talk to you.

Larry:
I really enjoyed this, Jane, thank you so much.

Jane:
Thank you.