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Jonathan McFaddenThe benefits of inclusive design practices are clear: better business results and more satisfied users of our digital products.
Our task now is to sharpen our focus on inclusion in our content-design craft. We also need to get better at convincing leadership to support this work.
Jonathan McFadden has been practicing inclusive design for years and gets better every year at persuading executives and managers to support this important work.
We talked about:
- his work on the “Shop” app at Shopify
- the impact of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs the current round of tech layoffs
- the improvement in representation of diverse employees at Shopify
- the importance of gaining the attention of leadership to advance DEI initiatives, and how to do it
- how he builds inclusive and diverse teams
- the benefits of having a diverse design team, so that the full range of human experience is included in the design process
- how reaching out to universities may be a good way to cope with the current scarcity around resourcing inclusion and diversity programs
- how setting the stage for diversity and inclusion during lean times might magnify the work when times are good again
- how to account for age and ageism along with other kinds of inclusion
- his charge to content designers to remember that we’re on the front lines of inclusion work and to keep the advocacy going
Jonathan’s bio
Jonathan McFadden is a senior content designer at Shopify, where he partners with a team of designers to create better experiences for users on the Shop app. Outside of his daytime gig, he runs his own content writing business, Jon Writes, and teaches a weekly Bible study. He enjoys spending time with his lyrically-gifted wife, reading comic books, and bingeing reruns of his favorite cult classic, Xena: Warrior Princess.
Connect with Jonathan online
Video
Here’s the video version of our conversation:
Podcast intro transcript
This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 137. At this point, it’s clear that when you include in your design process as many different kinds of folks as possible, you realize many business and social benefits. We’re at a juncture now where the main challenges for designers doing inclusion work are in gaining the support of leadership and cultivating the practice skills that promote inclusion. Jonathan McFadden has years of experience doing this work, and in convincing executives and managers to support it.
Interview transcript
Larry:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode number 137 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I am super delighted today to have with us Jonathan McFadden. Jon is a senior content designer at Shopify. And welcome to the show, Jon. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you’re up to at Shopify these days.
Jonathan:
Hi, Larry. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so happy to be here. Like Larry said, I’m a senior content designer at Shopify, and what that means is in the context of my day-to-day, I work on a product known as Shop. And Shop is an order tracking and shopping app that is powered by Shopify. And so I am responsible for the core shopping experience. I partner with product designers, with our engineers, with our product managers and our UX researcher to really help people shop on the app.
Jonathan:
And so some of those surfaces I work on include the home feed, our product display pages, the bag, which is basically a cart where you can continue to check out, and also responsible for activities such as activation; helping activate new users and help them acclimate to the actual app and onboard within the first 30 days or so of their app usage or app download. Yeah, that’s what I do as part of my job.
Jonathan:
And what I do a little bit on this side also in tandem with work is I work with our craft lead, Mario Ferrer, to build the content design discipline at Shop. Even though we are part of the greater content design discipline at Shopify, Shop is considered a standalone product within the greater Shopify organization. And because of that, we’re able to actually shape the content design discipline the way we think best. And we’ve been given a lot of runway and leeway by our UX director to really build and architect the discipline in the way we think it should look and how it should actually exist. And so I’ve been able to help with building and crafting and creating the discipline from the ground up, and that’s been really exciting and rewarding work.
Larry:
It’s hard to imagine a better team than you and Mario building that kind of practice, and to be doing shopping stuff at a place called Shopify; that’s pretty awesome too. Just a quick aside, I’m actually going to be in Barcelona next week, and I’m going to have lunch with Mario, so I’m really looking forward to that.
Jonathan:
Oh. Yeah. Wonderful. Oh, you guys have to send me a picture or something. I’m going to have so much FOMO, but please still make-
Larry:
Well, you should fly over and join us.
Jonathan:
I should. You’re right. Let me talk to Shopify about that.
Larry:
Yeah. Hey, one thing I want to get just at the top of the episode just to really get it out of the way, but I think it’s something that people will expect people like us to talk about in this day and age, there’s all these layoffs going on right now and there’s a lot of uncertainty and concern in the tech world about that. One of the things that occurred to me about that is that one of the things that you’re well known for and that we want to talk about more later in the show is you work in diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, and something occurred to me this morning as I was walking into work about, holy moly, I wonder, there’s so often this last in, first out in hiring and programmatic decisions, and stuff. Do you have any concern that some of the progress we’ve seen might be diminished by this current environment?
Jonathan:
I am concerned about it, Larry. I don’t have any empirical or statistical data to back this up, but anecdotally I feel like women and people of color have been disproportionately impacted in this wave of layoffs. And I have heard stories of people who work specifically on diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives being some of the first to either see their budget slash, their teams reconfigured, restructured, or their employees completely let go from the company at some of the companies I worked at previously where I was able to really dig in to some of these DEI efforts.
Jonathan:
And so I am concerned that is not a priority for a lot of companies right now. I think the primary priority is really trying to recover shareholder trust and to bump up those stock prices. And unfortunately, in the face of profit, DEI tends to get put on the back burner. And so I am worried that companies that made these really audacious and bold commitments to diversity, equity and inclusion are no longer that concerned about it.
That’s not every company, of course, but I think we are, at this point, almost three years removed from George Floyd’s murder where we saw this groundswell of all of a sudden people were really concerned and interested about Black lives and diversity, equity and inclusion, and there was this frenzy of commitment and interest and investment from these companies; and there was a lot of accountability. And I feel like some of that fervor has faded. We just don’t see companies making those kind of bold claims anymore.
Jonathan:
There are some who have been on this track before George Floyd, Ben and Jerry’s being one of my favorite examples. Talk about a brand that’s been like for Black lives for a very long time. But I think some of those organizations that may be, in my mind, were Johnny come latelys in 2020 and were just waking up to the fact that, “Oh, you know what? Being Black in America actually is different. There are two Americas, actually. What do you know?” I feel like they are probably the first to revert back to form because now they’re really just trying to hold on and weather the economics and what we find ourselves in. I am very concerned about it.
Jonathan:
Without giving away too much, I guess, of the secret sauce, at Shopify, when I first joined and onboarded to the company, I was able to partner with the person who recruited me, actually. And we worked intently to ensure that the interviewing pipeline for content design, for the Shopify content design discipline in particular was more diversified, that we had more Black and brown candidates in that pipeline. And it worked. We saw more Black content designer specifically onboard in 2022. And while the numbers weren’t that great to begin with, they did increase, and it was almost doubled. Again, not great numbers. It’s the difference between three and six, but still it was an increase nonetheless. And so our efforts did yield some fruit, but now we’re in a place even where it’s like, okay, that’s not at the top of the list right now. Again, without trying to give away too much, because I don’t want Shopify to come after me, I think that that is maybe just one example that I can speak to of shifting priorities, for sure.
Larry:
Couple things about that. One is more just an observation, that in addition to the awareness that arose from the George Floyd murder and the ensuing action, there’s also just a lot of evidence, scientific business evidence that diversity and inclusion make for better business results. There’s that, to keep that in mind. And I know that you’re not going to quit doing this work, so what can we do now doing more with less? What’s our path forward, I guess, in that regard?
Jonathan:
I think it’s really grabbing and bending the ears of leadership, whoever that is in your respective organization and reminding them of why this is a priority. Like you said, there’s an abundance or a huge body of research and evidence showing that when we hire more women, actually, we’re more profitable. When we have more people of color in leadership positions, we actually see better retention. We’re able to actually break into different markets, we have different perspectives, so many different ideas. We have diversity of thought, diversity of experience, and all that makes our products better. We’re a little more humane and we’re actually able to… We actually see a correlation between different types of people, a diversity of employees sitting in seats of power and revenue increase and profit margin increase. I think it’s reminding people that, actually, diversity isn’t just something that’s a good thing to do because you’re a good human, which, in my opinion, should be enough, but we know business is business and it’s not enough. But it’s actually good for business. It’s an ingredient in the recipe for a healthy organization, which will parlay into a better product, which will then segue into more profit.
Jonathan:
And so I think it’s just bringing those things back to the forefront and putting those things in front of leadership as often as we can. And I think part of that includes advocacy, finding people who can be allies, whether it’s within your organization, maybe without, outside your organization. I don’t know if you’re connected to consultants, people who are willing to come and talk to the actual company leadership and maybe explain and remind them again about why these commitments are so important. Or it could be just finding allies. Maybe it’s not somebody who’s the CEO, but maybe it’s your VP of product, maybe it’s your UX director, maybe it’s someone who’s a EVP of something over some division of the company, just finding those people who could really be those representative allies at those levels, at that echelon of leadership who can get the ear of the people who are the real decision makers and convince them that, “Hey, this is really important.”
Jonathan:
And I will say …not to… I don’t want to just poo-poo on Shopify or any other tech company, there are still efforts happening. I know internally there still is a lot of concern being paid to our inclusive language guidelines. And there’s a team, I believe, that’s working on trying to update those guidelines and keep them fresh. There are people who are still very much interested and invested in this work, they just need more leverage, they just need to be uplifted. They need to be amplified, their voices need to be amplified. And people who occupy seats of power are the best people to amplify those voices. We need sponsors, we need advocates, we need allies, we need people who will shout on our behalf because I can only go so far. I’m a senior level employee. I’m an L6. There’s only so much influencing I can do.
Larry:
Right.. And to what you just said, that you’ve been doing this for a while, and you just said right there a lot of pragmatic things, progress that we can reflect on and build on, maybe, hopefully still resourced and supported in ways. It feels like maybe there’s going to be a need for… You just mentioned the allyship and advocacy on the parts of our folks. And I think that most of my listeners would probably fall in that category. I know there’s a lot of content leaders listening to this podcast, but it’s a lot of just practitioners because I really focus on practice in this thing. And you’ve talked a lot about, for example, you mentioned the progress we’ve made in… Intuit’s famous for their work. And many other companies have done good work around in accounting for inclusive language in their design operations. But you’ve made the point – and done the work – to show that it’s not just about the manuals, it’s a lot of people stuff as well. Can you talk a little bit about how you’ve built more inclusive and diverse teams?
Jonathan:
I think it’s all about being intentional. And I think stating that, setting that intention, or whatever you want to call it, we’re going to practice more inclusive hiring, we’re going to consider a multitude of people for this particular role. Hiring is such a tricky thing because it’s all about mitigating risk for the company, and so that’s why we find these job postings that require 10 plus years of content design experience, which for so many people is not a thing. It’s totally ridiculous.
Jonathan:
And so I think it takes people who are actually making these decisions and people who are hiring managers and people who are on these interviewing panels to look at this stuff and kind of be like, “Okay, that’s what we may have to actually write down and put out into the world,” but really, we realize how nonsensical this is, and we’re not going to adhere to this. We’re going to find the best candidates and we’re going to consider a wide array of different people because there are entire groups of people who are not being considered for these roles because they don’t meet this particular criterion.
Jonathan:
I think inclusive language guidelines and inclusive writing manuals and all those things are great, they’re great ways for us to ensure that we are maintaining consistency, great heart checks, great head checks. But at the end of the day, if we want to be inclusive in our practice, then we need to be inclusive in our teams. It seems logical and pragmatic to me that if you want to practice inclusivity in your organization, then your team needs to reflect that same commitment to inclusivity.
Jonathan:
It’s a little ironic when I look at inclusive language guidelines from companies and then see that these content design teams are quite homogenous. They’re either all white people or they’re championed by only white men. It’s great to have that level of advocacy, but how do you actualize that in the day-to-day? Who is the person you’re talking to or consulting with about some of the language that you’re saying we can’t use in the product? Or how are you developing these best practices if you’re only looking in the mirror, for instance, or you’re only paying attention to perhaps some other literature that’s been put out there? But language evolves all the time, and are lived experiences are on the front lines of that evolution, so why not talk to somebody who might be part of that community? Why not hire that person and benefit from the privilege of their lived experience and their knowledge? So that way, you have a much more in depth and full, comprehensive understanding of how this language may impact members of this particular community.
I just think inclusivity requires action, and inclusive language guidelines, that’s action, but I think it’s a good place to start. I don’t think it’s where we should end. I think we have to go a step further and we have to actually ensure that our organizations and our teams are reflecting the diverse audience that we’re actually trying to make products for.
Jonathan:
It’s just weird that it’s not, because it’s another form of supremacy. In a way. It’s almost like, “We’re the overlords creating the tech, and we’re going to create it for all people, but we’re okay just looking. We don’t want any actual variance among our leadership ranks.” We tell you… We know best for you, so we’re going to create the product for you, Black person, we’re going to create the product for you, woman, we’re going to create the product for you, disabled person. Even though that we have none of those types of people actually creating, it’s just weird. Condescending.
Larry:
I’m not sure that I’m quoting this exactly, but that notion of nothing for us without us. I don’t know who originally said that, but I think that’s a powerful notion, that you can… It’s like, I don’t know, white savior crap or something to just offer it up without actually including people. I also have friends who co-design, who work with marginalized populations in social services and stuff who, they just don’t do that without including the troubled teens that they’re trying to serve in their design process, like for social services.
Larry:
I fear we’re going to be in a place of scarcity around some of these resources for a while, so it sounds like it might be on us. You gave a number of good ideas in what you just said about how to think about this. But what about in practice? How can we as practitioners include more people?
Jonathan:
Yeah, I think universities would be a great place to start. I think universities give us access to brilliant students who understand tech because they’re digital natives in a way that I may not understand it and who are really excited about the industry. And the great thing about maybe not all, but a lot of universities, especially liberal arts colleges, is that you can find a wide array of different types of people from all different types of places converging in one place.
Jonathan:
Partnering with the university in a co-design process or maybe offering some kind of mentorship opportunity for students where you’re connecting full-time practitioners with students who want some guidance is a great way, I think, to maybe access people who can help you diversify or maybe even become a little more inclusive in your design process. Partnering with HBCUs, historically Black colleges and universities, what’s to stop us from doing that? Surely, there’s some leeway in someone’s budget, some wherewithal that allows us to partner with the university, include them in a co-design process, teach a class, or help a design class with their senior capstone or something. Certainly there’s some way where we can actually find these communities of people, like nonprofits or, like you said, social services agencies. There are these avenues in the communities in which we exist that we could be tapping into.
Jonathan:
And I think it’s also a commitment to, okay, what does hiring look like when things start to turn around for us? The economy is in a rough spot right now, but it’s been in a rough spot a lot. That’s the cyclical nature of the economy, so we know that eventually we’re going to get to a place where there is a bit of a rebound, where tech is starting… We have a bumper crop again, and so they go on a hiring spree again. Let’s lay the groundwork today for how we’re going to hire tomorrow. Let’s make the commitment now when times are lean that when times are not lean, we’re not going to commit the sins of the past, we’re going to do better.
Jonathan:
And so we’re going to be more inclusive in our hiring process, we’re going to talk to the students that we partnered with. We’re going to consider them first because we had one-on-one access to them and we were working with them and we know how talented and how brilliant they are. And we also understand that there’s a huge barrier to entry in the UX, and we want to help eradicate the barrier. We want to eliminate the wall, this invisible wall that we’ve erected that prevents people from joining into this practice or this discipline as juniors. And so we’re going to intentionally reach across the wall and bring these people in.
Jonathan:
I think it’s all about setting the intention and being committed to the work. And even if you can’t do it now, there’s nothing wrong with planning. Now is the time to plan. We operate from a scarcity mindset, so we’re worried about how are we going to feed ourselves in the next five minutes? Instead of worrying about how you’re going to feed yourself in the next five minutes, start thinking about what you’re going to do over the next five years to ensure that you are healthy. Make a plan.
Larry:
As you’re talking about this, especially all the young people in the universities and all this, I’m reminded of a story I’ve heard you tell about, I think it was a woman named Katia who you hired who was young, fresh out of college. And this also hearkens back to that thing you said about people wanting 10 years of experience. Come on, who has 10 years of content design experience?
Jonathan:
Who?
Larry:
Nobody does. I think the power in that story, if I’m remembering it correctly, was that you were not just like, “Hey, I’m going to take a chance on this kid,” you were proactive and preemptive about, “No, this person is… Young people have different things to say.” It’s another kind of diversity. I think ageism is definitely a thing. Whether you’re young or old, or whatever, if it’s different from you, you may dismiss somebody for being older or younger. Because you clearly don’t have any issue with that, how can you help other people consider these others? Whether it’s an age difference, or you’ve mentioned gender and race. And there’s all these different dimensions.
Jonathan:
Yeah, I think, Larry, when it comes to people who are younger than me, members of generation Z, for instance… Because I’m a millennial, and so I’m in my 30s, and so I grew up in a time where I remember the world before the iPhone and I know the world after the iPhone, so I have a very unique perspective that I think is advantageous. And I use that in my work. In the same way I think members of generation Z have a perspective that we absolutely need to be leveraging.
Jonathan:
These are people who are born with an iPhone in their hands. They don’t know anything else. And I don’t mean that in a condescending or belittling way, that’s a benefit, that’s of value because they intuitively understand the technology in a way that I don’t may have to learn something, and they can run laps around me. It, to me, just made sense.
If we strip away even the inclusivity aspect of it, but I guess it’s not really stripping that part away, it really did, in my mind, make for good business logic. This is someone who understands tech, who was able to demonstrate to me during the interview process that, “Yeah, I wasn’t working full-time, I was working for clients on the side, but look, I have a Figma account, and I learned. And I committed myself to learning, and I got gritty and resilient, and I did the work and I put in the effort to figure this stuff out so that I could try and get to this particular place.” To me, that says a lot that. It says a lot that when you have obstacles that are constantly in your way, that you try and find your way to navigate and maneuver around them because it suggests to me that when you join the team, oh, you’re going to be a hard worker. You’re going to learn things. If there’s something you don’t know, you don’t just sit down and fold your arms and be like, “Okay, I’m not going to learn it.”
Jonathan:
Katia said something that I thought was so resonant when I interviewed her for the conference. She said that most people are willing to learn, and they’re going to learn. If you give them some time and you put a task in front of them and they may not know how to do it, it’s okay because they’re committed and invested in doing a good job, so they’re going to learn it. I felt the same way about her.
Jonathan:
If she had some kind of knowledge deficit or experienced deficit, it wasn’t that big of a deal because, one, I believed in mentoring. Here I am, I’m in a place of privilege. I have a particular position. I’ve been in the industry a little longer. I know how corporate America works. I can help you navigate that, and I’ll help you with that part. But I also felt like, okay, she’ll get it. I’ll make sure that she learns. I will provide her with, as her manager, the resources and the bandwidth and the time and the patience that she needs to learn the thing. And I’m confident that she will because she’s smart and she catches onto things. And I could tell; you don’t get this far without having some kind of aptitude and ability to do the work, and so why would I hold her age against her? That makes absolutely no sense. She-
Larry:
Yeah, the way you describe that, it’s like you’re making the case, why would you ever hire an old person? But there are good reasons to do that, too. But the way you present her and the things that she brings, it’s like, well, one, it just highlights the absurdity that, well, you got to have five years of experience. It’s like, well, you didn’t have five years of experience when you started.
Jonathan:
Exactly, exactly. And I think about my journey, Larry, and maybe this is what makes me a little more willing to take those bets and make those risks, I did not intentionally set out to become a content designer; I fell into it. Like lot of people, it happened. Job move One led a job move Two, which led to Three, and all of a sudden I have the title of a content designer. Figure it out. That’s what it was.
Jonathan:
I got a job as a content strategist, and I was like, “I think I know how to do this. If there’s something I don’t know how to do, I’m going to figure it out.” And I did. And so I’m like, well, I did it so I should give somebody else that same opportunity because it’s possible. It’s not an impossible feat to accomplish. What I did wasn’t that special, so why should I prevent someone else from having that same opportunity?
Jonathan:
I am so grateful for the people who gave me a chance and saw the potential in me and we’re like, “Yeah, you’re not perfect, you don’t know it all, but enough to convince us that you can do the job, so come on. And whatever you don’t learn, you’ll figure it out.” And I did. Because that’s the best way to learn is to just do it.
Jonathan:
I had a manager, Austin Light, who was incredible, who let me fumble a little bit, who let me make mistakes and didn’t punish me for it. And anything I didn’t know how to do, I just learned. And then he advocated for me when I wanted to go to conferences like Confab and I wanted to join meetups and learn more about UX and partner more intentionally with product managers and really pushed this idea of, “Hey, you really should actually bring me in a lot sooner in the process, and here’s some evidence why.” He really supported that. And that’s what I think people need no matter what age they are.
Jonathan:
I know I’ve focused a lot on Gen Z, but even for people who are not Gen Z, who are baby boomers or Generation X or older millennials still have the capacity to learn; that doesn’t go away. We are adaptable people; we will figure it out. And so there’s a lot of wisdom and there’s a lot of knowledge with people who are older that we could also benefit from, people who have been working for a long time and understand top to bottom how this game works. And they know how to play the game very well. I love working with those people because I love to learn from them and because they’ve lifted me in my career and they’ve helped me.
Jonathan:
And so I think you need that wide spectrum of experience because, yeah, there may be some generational chasms that we have to overcome, but that’s not a big… We can do that. That’s fine. We’re working toward the same thing. Yeah, I think it’s just common sense, honestly, for me. Maybe that’s just me, though. It’s common sense.
Larry:
Yeah, the way you describe that, it’s like navigating your way at a family reunion or something, you know?
Jonathan:
Yeah.
Larry:
It’s like everybody’s got something, everybody’s bringing something to it.
Jonathan:
Everybody bringing something.
Larry:
Yeah. I can’t believe it, we’re already coming up close to time. These conversations always go way too fast. But I want to make sure before we wrap, is there anything last, anything that’s come up in the conversation or that’s just on your mind that you want to make sure we get to?
Jonathan:
I think in terms of inclusivity, especially among content design, I realize that it’s a bit challenging right now. And I know that a lot of people may not be fully focused on it because I need to pay my bills, I need to feed my family. Those are very urgent needs. And I completely understand. My wife was laid off from her job in November; I get it.
I will say for those who maybe haven’t been impacted by layoffs personally or are finding new roles and new opportunities, don’t forget that commitment. That is my charge to you and my little dose of encouragement. Don’t forget the commitments that we’ve made to making content design as inclusive of a community as possible.
Jonathan:
That’s what I love about this community, content designers and UX writers, content strategists, I feel like we are on the front lines of creating inclusive, compassionate, human experiences for people. And so I’ve met so many people in the community who care about this work who really push for it and advocate for it, and I just want that advocacy to continue.
Jonathan:
I’ve faced some challenges over the last year and a half myself in terms of pushing this work forward, but I just want to encourage you not to forget. I want to encourage you to keep going. And know that you have allies in the community. There are people who we can call upon. We have heavy hitters like David Dylan Thomas, like Kristina Halvorson, like Candi Williams. Talk to them, reach out to them. These are nice, kind people who want to hear from you and want to help. And so I’d say just continue to leverage the network that we have and continue to make inclusivity a commitment and continue to make it a reality wherever you are, even if it’s just within your team. Start small. Just start. Go beyond the inclusive writing guide and just start with your team.
Larry:
I love that. And I love the reminder of how far we have come in is this discipline and how we really are at the forefront. It’s easy to forget that sometimes, but I think you’re right, so thanks for that reminder. Hey, one very last thing.
Jonathan:
Yeah, absolutely.
Larry:
Oh, I’m sorry, Jon, go ahead. Yeah.
Jonathan:
No, I was going to say just thank you for inviting me. I think I was a little bit all over the place, but it was still good, so thank you.
Larry:
No, I appreciate everything you say. One day, maybe I’ll just do a five hour podcast just so we can get to everything because there’s so much more we could talk about. But hey, there is one last thing, Jon. What’s the best way for folks to stay in touch, to follow you on social media or to connect? How do you like to connect with folks?
Jonathan:
Yeah, the social media platform that I use the most actually is LinkedIn, and so people can find me there as Jonathan McFadden. I usually answer all DMs. I usually accept all connection requests unless I feel like you’re trying to sell me something. You can also follow me on Instagram @jonwritesink, that’s I-N-K. I am not very active, so you may not get a lot from me there, but it’s still another touchpoint. Also on Facebook as Jonathan McFadden. Again, you may not get a lot from me there. LinkedIn is my thing right now. And yeah, that’s pretty much it, really. Yeah. And I have a website, jonwritesink.com.
Larry:
Excellent. Well, thanks so much, Jon. I really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you a lot.
Jonathan:
Thank you so much for having me, Larry. Sorry, it’s still early. Thank you so much for hearing me. I really appreciate it. And I can’t wait to hear the episode.
Larry:
Likewise. Cheers, man. We’ll see you soon.
Jonathan:
All right, take care.
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