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Keri MaijalaAs the field of content design has matured, leaders have emerged to guide their teams as well as the profession as a whole.
Both at LinkedIn, where she leads the content design team, and through her avid participation in the content community, Keri Maijala has helped shape the craft of content-design leadership.
We talked about:
- her leadership of the content design team at LinkedIn
- her transition from an individual contributor (IC) role into leadership
- the huge differences between IC roles and management and how to structure your work to manage transitions between them
- how to deal with differing methods of measuring success and impact when collaborating across multiple functional areas
- her real-time untangling of the distinctions between leadership and management
- her thoughts on navigating a content-design job hunt
- the importance of her professional community
- her involvement with several content conferences
- the importance when you’re in a leadership role of self-care for both yourself and your team
Keri’s bio
Keri Maijala leads the Content Design team at LinkedIn. She’s been in the user experience space for more than 20 years, focusing on creating and organizing good, relevant content that uses human words for human people. Lately, she’s spending her professional time exploring how to best demonstrate the value of content design and what it means to be a leader.
In her non-professional time, she’s hanging out with her husband and bald Pomeranian in Santa Cruz, CA, and trying to figure out how to sneak roller skates into Disneyland.
Connect with Keri online
Video
Here’s the video version of our conversation:
Podcast intro transcript
This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 150. The field of content strategy is famous for its epic gatherings and the thoughtful, generous, and friendly professionals who attend them. It’s difficult to imagine a person who better exemplifies this community then Keri Maijala. Keri leads the content design team at LinkedIn, where she’s known for her diligent advocacy for her team and for the craft of content design. It’s hard work, and Keri always tackles it thoughtfully and with her trademark contagious joy.
Interview transcript
Larry:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode number 150 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I am super extra delighted today to welcome to the show Keri Majaila. Keri leads the content design team at LinkedIn. She also has the distinction of being one of the only two people to attend every single Confab Central over the course of its existence, which just wrapped up last month. So it was great to see you at Confab, and it’s great to see you here, Keri. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you’re doing. Yeah.
Keri:
Yeah, it’s so good to see you. Yeah, so what you said. I lead the content design team at LinkedIn. I’ve been at LinkedIn for a little over five years now. Over three of those have been in a leadership role. So yeah, I decided to make the move into leadership right before 2020, so I had that going for me. That was an interesting time to make that transition. But who knew?
Larry:
Who knew? Well, and that’s interesting, because this has come up. Leadership has been a really dominant topic in content design discussion in the last couple years. I don’t know where that came from. Maybe it’s because of that.
Keri:
Us.
Larry:
Yeah. Yeah, okay, there’s your answer. So tell me about that, and we’ve talked a little bit about that in the past, but just the … Well, first of all, the transition from an individual contributor role into leadership. That’s big. And-
Keri:
It is. It is, and I don’t think people really understand how big it is. So I’ve been super interested in what it means to be a leader, and helping people transition from IC to leadership, and having a lot of conversations around it. It amazes me how many leaders or companies just think that, “Oh, it’s no big deal.” If you’re going to move from an IC to a leadership role, there’s no discussion about it, there’s no preparation for it.
Keri:
I worked at a place once where I walked into a reorg. We walked in one morning and it was like, “Hey, everybody’s reorged,” and one of my IC colleagues was told, at that moment, “Now you’re a manager.” There had been no discussion beforehand, as far as I know. She seemed pretty shell-shocked. And that fascinates me, because I don’t think people understand that it’s a completely different job, that you are essentially starting over. And I feel that there needs to be more structure around that when it happens.
Larry:
Yeah. And did you build your own structure as you made your transition, or … ?
Keri:
One of the reasons that I decided to make this transition at the time that I did, because I’d been resisting … I had been a manager previously, and it didn’t agree with me, and I thought the problem was me. I’m like, “Oh, clearly I’m not cut out to be a leader. I’m going to sit here in my IC world where clearly I know everything and I’m the expert.”
Keri:
But when I moved over to LinkedIn, I had an amazing manager, Julie Norvaisas, and she really encouraged me to go into leadership, and in the kind of way that was without pressure. It’s like, “Hey, we need this. I think that you’d be great. Let’s have a conversation around it.” And I talked to other people at the company and how LinkedIn approached leadership, and what did that structure look like? And because LinkedIn had a structure around what it meant to be a leader, and you had the flexibility to move back and forth. I had a colleague at LinkedIn that did exactly that, moved from IC to leadership and then back again, because careers are fluid and they should be fluid, and there should be opportunities to decide where you want to focus.
Keri:
So to answer your question, I did have to create some of my own structure, but I certainly wasn’t just left in the wilderness to fend for myself when I decided to make that change.
Larry:
Yes, it’s hard to imagine a more business-ey company than LinkedIn in terms of an awareness of that and having, if not specific support, at least conceptual support for this idea of you working into that.
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
But as you talk about that transition from individual contributor, the IC role, into management, and then back out sometimes, how much of that is driven, when people do that … I know that so many people in content design are into the craft. Even though it’s so new-ish, that people are already … They’re Portuguese shoe cobblers or something. They’re really into it.
Keri:
Sure.
Larry:
So, the two questions about that. One, to what extent is it the desire to return to craft that leads to that little … not revolving door, but that transition? But also, is leadership a craft as well? Is that another craft to develop?
Keri:
Oh, what an interesting question.
Keri:
Yeah. So, when I have seen people move back … and I’m sure there are multiple reasons; there are all sorts of personal reasons, there’s career reasons … but what I have seen is yeah, because it’s a completely separate job, you do lose that working on your craft. You just do. And we’re working on so many interesting things right now, almost weekly I’m like, “Ugh, I wish I get to dive into that, because what a juicy content problem that is, that I would love to get my hands in and solve that.”
Keri:
But you are absolutely right; leadership is a completely different kind of craft, and you’re solving different problems. And especially in content design, the problems tend to revolve around setting up your team for success and helping the individual members of your team be successful. And I’ve had it likened to a big umbrella, where you’re shielding your team, and there’s so much backend work that no one will ever see that goes on to try to clear the path. You’re holding up your little umbrella and you’re just kind of waving it around going like, “Oh, I got to put it over here. Oh, I got to put it over there,” but no one sees that umbrella. It’s this invisible umbrella somehow.
Larry:
I’m picturing a-
Keri:
My analogies are spot on today.
Larry:
No, I’m picturing an old Lucille Ball episode or something. There’s probably one like that, where you’re frantically running around trying to catch that …
Keri:
Kind of, yeah.
Larry:
But as you talk about that, so much of that … Most people I know appreciate their boss, so I don’t think it’s thankless work, but it’s work that’s less … All those things you talked about, like setting your team up for success … That’s kind of fuzzy in terms of telling somebody at a cocktail party what a successful week you had at work. How do you-
Keri:
Right.
Larry:
Yeah. Exactly, yeah. So, how do you make sure that you’re making progress, that you’re serving your team well and doing all the things that you …
Keri:
Oh.
Larry:
Yeah.
Keri:
Yeah. Larry, you ask such good questions. So part of that is readjusting your expectations for progress, and really examining where you’ve been. And that’s not something that’s a simple feat, right? Because it’s very easy to get used to whatever new normal is happening in your work. So you’ve achieved this thing and now you’re in this space, and so that becomes normal, and then you move on, and it’s really easy to get caught up in the things that you haven’t achieved yet. So kind of keeping track of the wins and celebrating the wins, no matter how small they might seem, is really important, and giving yourself space to feel that and go, “Yeah, I did that well. That was good,” and having a cookie.
Larry:
Yeah, you’re reminding me of two things. One, I’ve always been one of those productivity nerds, you know, GTD…
Keri:
Oh, sure, yeah.
Larry:
…all that stuff. But in the process of lightening up on myself, I think I’ve accomplished more, because I’m more concerned with daily progress than specific task accomplishment. So, there’s that.
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
And I didn’t figure that out on my own; I heard this from a number of wise people as well. And I think related to that, or parallel to that, is something I’ve encountered in some of the roles I’ve been in, is the difference in progress measurement between product and engineering and design. Is that something you’ve had to cope with, or … ?
Keri:
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve had conversations with members of my team because they’re constantly … And this will be completely familiar with anybody in a content designer or content design-like field, but how do you measure success? And for my team, I try to impart that there are lots of different ways that you can measure success and impact, and it doesn’t all have to be data. It could be, how did you interact with your team? How did you bring your point of view to a product? How did the product change, or the experience change, because you were present? What problems did you solve that wouldn’t have been solved if you weren’t in the room? Virtually.
Larry:
Yeah.
Keri:
The virtual room.
Larry:
I don’t think I’ll get into this in this conversation, but that reminds me of the whole conversation about portfolios for design.
Keri:
Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah.
Larry:
How on earth would you show … Well, maybe, actually, let me ask you about that. How do you show that kind of … Because that’s a really crucial capability, that ability to influence people and influence product directions and stuff, but maybe not so hard to articulate in a portfolio piece.
Keri:
Well, and if you’re asking what a content design portfolio might look like, what I’ve asked of people in the past is … Really, the writing part is important. Everybody on the team must be an excellent writer. But at the same time, what you’re really doing is problem solving, so what was the problem? So describe the problem. Who did you collaborate with? What things did you try? What things didn’t work? If there was a way to measure the results, what did that look like?
Keri:
So before-and-afters are great, and I think it’s an important part of a portfolio, especially for content design, but at the same time, showing your process, showing your way of thinking, showing how you collaborate with your colleagues and how you got to this … And I love to see the things that didn’t work. It’s like, “We tried this. It didn’t work. Here’s what we learned.” I love that. I’m a sucker for those. But there are definite ways to develop a portfolio from a content design point of view that can show the value of the work that you did.
Larry:
Yeah. And actually I was going to say, back to you as a manager, which makes me want to ask a preliminary question to that.
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
Do you distinguish between … It’s late on a Friday afternoon; that’s why my language is all gone.
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
For me. Anyway.
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
No, but do you distinguish between leadership and management? Do you see those as parallel, intertwined, connected capabilities?
Keri:
Oh. I guess I do, but I’ve never thought about it that way. Let me, in real time, untangle this. Management, to me, is a more tactical process, where leadership is more of a mindset and a philosophy. So, leadership to me is … again, real time! Woo!
Larry:
Yeah.
Keri:
It’s more about my values, my integrity, how I want to show up, how I interact with my team, how do I help them be successful from a people point of view, whereas management are the actual things that I do, so management is more reorganizing my team to align them with the top priorities of the company. That is a very tactical thing that I do. I’m trying to find an example of leadership.
Larry:
No, I got to say, for thinking on the fly, that’s one of the best … because I think a lot of people have an answer for that and it’s kind of … not conventional, but the way you describe it, I love that you build it around your own personal values for the leadership part, and the craft part, or the more task-ey part of it, for the management part. Just a heads-up to any other listeners, that’s just one of those questions I’m just fishing all the time, because I’m really intrigued by that. But it’s interesting that I think they’ve been conflated, and I think lately … In the past, they’ve been more …
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
I think the work of Eileen Webb and Sarah Wachter-Boettcher and all the leadership folks in our world are teasing that out better, I think, and maybe that’s where the leadership is being more … that people are thoughtful about it, I guess.
Keri:
Yeah. Yeah, I really hope so, ’cause I think you can be a good manager without being a good leader. I’m going to have to think about that one more, because I can … Well, maybe not. Again, real time. But I don’t think the opposite is true at all.
Larry:
Well that’s-
Keri:
So yeah, I’m still teasing that out a little bit. You can edit this out.
Larry:
Okay. No, no, no, no. I loved it. That’s the whole point of this podcast, is to have a conversation and tease out ideas. But another idea that I want to tease out there a little bit is that another thing I’ve heard, recently, people talking about is the notion of leading from anywhere, that you don’t have to be in a management position to lead.
Keri:
Yeah.
Larry:
And especially, I’m really now interested in the perspective of a leader and manager about … Do you look to your team, to your ICs and other managers in your purview, for leadership as well?
Keri:
Do I look to my team for leadership? You don’t have to be in a leadership role to be a leader. And that’s something that we talk about, too, at LinkedIn, because we do have parallel tracks for people management and in IC, and for IC, it goes up to senior principal, I think. I think that’s where they diverge. I don’t think we have an IC VP or anything like that. But I think the difference is that on an IC track, in a leadership role, you are leading ideas. When I think about what makes an amazing principal in this practice, it is somebody that is proactively going out to understand what’s happening in the discipline and in the communities that work in this discipline and bringing those ideas back to the team, whereas a people manager helps clear the way to make those ideas come to fruition. So if you’re an IC, you can definitely be a leader.
Larry:
Yeah. That’s really interesting, too, and I think the way you’re saying that now, I can picture a grid emerging, sort of, of what you expect at each level. And I’ve seen that in some companies, they’ll have that articulated, but the way you just said it is, I think, a slightly different approach to that, where it kind of gets you beyond that “I know when I see it.” I think that’s how a lot of principals have come about, but if you can articulate into specific things you do to illustrate that you’re ready for that level … yeah, I love that. And that kind of reminds me, too, of just building a team. The time we first met … I don’t think I’d ever met you at a Confab. I’d seen you, but I don’t think we had met. But you did an online webinar with … I think it was Lisamarie, and Alex, on how to get a job at LinkedIn. And
Keri:
That’s right, yeah! That was-
Larry:
It was great. I was like, “Wow, you’re spilling your guts out in public.” I can’t remember who said what, but it was a really informative panel. But I’m trying to remember your contribution to it. What do you recommend to people who are looking for a job? Because a lot of people are looking right now.
Keri:
Yeah, so that was the virtual Confab, right?
Larry:
I think so.
Keri:
Oh, okay. So, here’s what’s funny about that panel. It was completely last-minute and just like, “Okay, we’re just going to have a little lunch and learn,” and we did this thing and it was just completely off the cuff, and it was one of the most successful things, in terms of feedback and interaction, that I think I’d ever done. And especially at the time, everything was growing and everybody was looking for work, so yeah.
Keri:
And it was just very candid. We were talking all sorts of things about … We talked about portfolios, and we talked about the interview process. And I did a lot of work at LinkedIn, when we were hiring, to revamp the way that process looked, and part of it was a result of the response that we got from that panel. So I was watching the chat blow up about the companies requiring exercises and how intrusive they were, because it’s your time, it’s your life that you’re spending, and some people have kids, some people are caregivers, some people work multiple jobs. So, I went back and revamped what that looked like. We removed the degree requirement from our role. But that’s not the question you asked at all. The question you asked was, “How do you find a job?”
Larry:
Well, yeah, no, and I think anything around that, I think, will be helpful to people. And like I said, I was fishing. I couldn’t prompt you with actually what I remembered about that panel either. So, yeah.
Keri:
Yeah. So, I would say that one of the things to help make yourself stand out … and I think this is true with any discipline, but I think it’s especially true with content design … is really polish your storytelling.
Keri:
So most companies will say something like, “Tell me about yourself.” Have that completely dialed in. Have your one-minute to one-and-a-half-minute speech about … Include some career things, how you got into this, what you’re interested in doing, what you’re looking for. And as the questions are being asked, if you can tell stories and show examples around what you did and how you did it, really show the way that you think, I know that that is something that we definitely look for, and I really hope that most people in this discipline, or really in any discipline, are looking for that. They’re looking to, “What are you bringing? What are you bringing that’s different? How is your point of view different? How will you contribute?”
Keri:
On the flip side of that, you are also interviewing them. Have questions, because you absolutely want to make sure that it’s a good fit, and if anybody makes you feel like that’s a bad thing, then peace out.
Larry:
Yeah. And one of the reasons I asked you about that, not that I have an ulterior motive, but I think one of the reasons that you’re … I’m inferring from your presence at every single Confab and a bunch of other industry things that you’re talking to your colleagues and your teammates about this stuff, and I know that you’ve co-hosted a couple of Confabs and Buttons and you’re going to co-host the next Button this fall. That’s obviously important to you, if you got your perfect attendance record at Confab and-
Keri:
I want that gold star!
Larry:
Gold star on your report card, yeah. How informed are you, and how much are other people informed, by you all just talking to each other about how you do hiring, how you develop people, all that stuff?
Keri:
Oh my gosh, yeah. Very much so. Community is incredibly important. So there’s all sorts of Slack channels, and there’s conferences, but having that regular feedback … and again, I keep saying “especially in content design,” but okay, fine … especially in content design, when there aren’t a whole lot of content design leaders to understand, what problems are we facing? What challenges do we have and how are we solving them? So, I think so much of what we do is just making it up as we go along.
Keri:
At the same time, if somebody else has been there already and has found a solution that works, then it would be really great to have that information rather than spending months hitting your head against the wall trying to figure it out. So, yeah. And back in the day when I was a consultant, the community was my lifeline, almost literally, because that’s how I got work. So there are so many reasons to be connected to a community, and who knows what information that you have that you just think is like, “Well, everybody knows this,” that is going to be the light bulb moment for somebody else.
Larry:
Yeah. You’re articulating why I go to these conferences, because I’ll say something that just seems dumb and obvious to me, and everybody’s like, “Oh, wow, that’s brilliant,” and I’m like, “Really?” And vice versa; I’ll hear somebody say something that they just think is completely mundane, and I’m like, “Wow. You just saved five years of my career figuring that thing out.” Yeah.
Keri:
Right.
Larry:
Yeah. Well, when did you get roped into being the co-MC? Was that a pandemic thing? Because that was the first time I remember seeing you be a prominent …
Keri:
Yeah, so I started … I’m trying to remember. They would just ask me to do things, and I’m like, “Sure, yeah, that sounds good!” But during the pandemic, I would host online karaoke for not only Confab … I can’t remember what I did for Button; it all kind of blurs … but Design & Content as well. And I think from that, when they decided that they needed a virtual MC for Button … and for those who didn’t attend, it was a hybrid conference in which there was a live audience, but then they had an audience that was just online, and I was dedicated to the online audience while Kristina Halvorson was dedicated to the live audience. So that’s how I got roped in to that, and then for Button this year, I guess people were just assuming that I would be co-hosting that as well, even though it’s live. And so Kristina’s like, “Okay, you want to do it?” and I’m like, “Sure, that sounds good. Let’s see what happens.”
Larry:
Nice. Well, I got to observe … I was at Button, and there was a hilarious switcheroo at the end where you and Kristina … you became the real host, and she became the virtual host. That was good comedy, I got to say. Yeah.
Keri:
We didn’t have any bits planned. You were there, but it became a joke. I was in a little back room, almost like this closet area, and so there was a whole #FreeKeri movement, and so that became a thing. And a lot of that stuff happened organically, so then we’re like, “What bits can we put together?” That was super, super fun. I really enjoyed that.
Larry:
I can attest. It was super fun. Hey, Keri, I can’t believe it. We’re already coming up close to time, but-
Keri:
What?!
Larry:
I know. I’m not in charge of the clock; I just watch it. But before we wrap, is there anything last, anything that’s come up in the conversation that you want to circle back on, or just anything that’s just on your mind that you want to share?
Keri:
We talked about leadership, and I think we touched on leadership during the pandemic, and … I don’t know. One thing that’s been on my mind recently, and this is not a new idea, but really how important it is to take care of yourself, and that part of being a good leader is understanding when your team needs a break or if they need something, but also when you do. And being kind to yourself, especially with just everything that’s going on right now, especially in the tech world. Taking a moment to just go for a walk, or putting off conversations that you’re not ready to have, so that you can show up to be the best person that you possibly can. And just to stay healthy. It’s so important.
Larry:
Yeah, I love that. That’s something that comes up … I just talk constantly to people in this profession, and kindness is just this delightfully common description of people in the field. And it sounds like you’ve routine-ized that in your leadership practice, so that’s … yeah.
Keri:
Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, and finding the joy. I am very big on joy. We share joyful moments in our team Slack every week, and we share pictures and anecdotes with one another. We’re human! Let’s be human!
Larry:
I think anybody who’s spent any time with you can attest to the joy that surrounds you-
Keri:
Aww.
Larry:
… yeah, and your team, so … Oh, hey, one very last thing, Keri. What’s the best way for folks to stay into … I’m guessing you might know of a social media network or something where people can keep in touch with you.
Keri:
Yeah, I’m super big on MySpace< right now. I don’t know if you know it. No, I’m just kidding. LinkedIn, obviously. LinkedIn. I’m there. Yeah, hit me up. I love talking with people about content design and leadership and all sorts of things, so hit me up there.
Larry:
Thanks. Well, I’ve enjoyed talking with you about it today. Thanks so much, Keri.
Keri:
Aww, thanks so much. Good to see you.
Larry:
Cheers.
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