Lisa Welchman: Digital Governance – Episode 102

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Lisa Welchman recognized early in her career that companies would need help managing the business challenges that come with new technologies.

In the ensuing 22 years, she has become the leading expert in the new field of digital governance.

Today, Lisa helps large enterprises, NGOs, and other companies develop frameworks, policies, and standards that let them collaborate effectively and operate responsibly.

We talked about:

• her education as a philosopher and how logic and coding were a good professional fit
• her early work as a front-end web developer at Netscape and Cisco
• how the “back-pocket skills” she had cultivated earlier in her career helped her succeed in web business
• her focus on organizational dynamics
• the difference between understanding technology and managing it
• as close as you’ll ever get to getting a definition of digital governance from her: “creating a collaboration model so that people can intentionally build something together”
• one of the big challenges of doing governance work: the lack of a common understanding of it across organizations
• the importance of agreeing on a defintion of “digital governance” before implementing it
• why she would rather see digital governance capability embedded across and within an organization than ensconced in a silo-ed role like Chief Digital Officer
• the difference in governance needs between legacy businesses and digital-first businesses
• how digital-first companies can be immature as business entity even as they use the latest technology
• how mature legacy organization can often more quickly implement governance frameworks, policies, and standards
• the maturity curve that she uses to help companies identify where they are in their digital growth
• a simple accounting method for digital governance
• how to create a basic governance framework
• the challenges of integrating digital governance into any kind of organization
• her gentle reminder to folks who are feeling challenged at work right now: don’t get discouraged and “do the best work where you can”

Lisa’s bio

For the over two decades, leaders of global 1000 companies, NGOs, and other organizations have turned to Lisa to analyze and solve their digital governance challenges. Lisa speaks globally on issues related to digital governance, digital safety, and the path to digital maturity in the enterprise. Lisa is the author of Managing Chaos: Digital Governance by Design, and co-host of the Surfacing podcast.

Connect with Lisa online

• LisaWelchman.com
• LinkedIn

Video

Here’s the video version of our conversation:

Podcast intro transcript

This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 102. There’s a big disconnect in many businesses between how well they apply the power of technology and how well they manage their use of it. Governance is the management practice that gives you the frameworks, policies, and standards to make sure that you and your team collaborate effectively and that you’re using technology responsibly and ethically. Lisa Welchman is one of the world’s leading authorities on this important digital business practice.

Interview transcript

Larry:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 102 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I’m really happy today to have with us Lisa Welchman. Lisa is a speaker, consultant, and coach, and works in the area of digital governance, which is what we’re going to talk about today. So, welcome, Lisa. Tell the folks a little bit more about your background and how you got into digital governance.

Lisa:
Sure. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I have a kind of interesting background. I was a philosophy major at university, spent a lot of time working with symbolic logic, which is the same thing as code logically in your head. I’ve always had a affinity for structure. That was in the late eighties when the web sort of came around. I had already been playing around with HyperCard on the early Macs and things like that, and was really interested in semantics, right? It was just intellectually a good fit, this idea of the internet and the web and clickable content, and being able to create these structures online.

Lisa:
It was also about the same time that I had my son, Reese. So, I got an offer to move to Silicon Valley and that I could code HTML pages from home. At that time, the early clients for this company were Netscape, so that’s an old name that some young people haven’t ever heard before, I’ve realized. That was my early job. I did a lot of freelancing and then took my first solid, real job working at Cisco Systems, managing their product pages. That was really interesting, because Cisco’s website was hundreds of thousands of pages in 1996.

Larry:
Wow.

Lisa:
So, that was a big website early. They also did multi-channel publishing, which are things that people still struggle with right now, of how to get that together.

Larry:
No kidding. There were not web CMS’s back then. How did they do that?

Lisa:
There were document management systems, which were the precursors. You’d basically drop a Quark document on the top, and then there was some custom code that took those content components and converted them into HTML and published them online. Yeah, so that was actually some pretty innovative work earlier that I wasn’t involved in designing. A woman named Jan Johnson Tyler was pivotal in designing that work, and I think got recognition from the Smithsonian for doing that. But it also meant that I saw that very early and I saw the impact of a large scale web presence on an enterprise.

Lisa:
I’m old enough that I’d actually worked in New York city, mostly doing freelance temp work for maybe almost 10 years prior to the work. So, I had a career prior to the web. I also worked in television production. I had actually seen how business works before the internet was around. That is actually one of my back-pocket skills that I have, is that I understand how people work out of the context of this, and it also means I understand what legacy organizational mechanisms are in place. Right? That sort of influence the way people behave in a system. It was also Cisco Systems. Cisco Systems makes, at that time, I don’t know what they call it now, internet working technology. They, of course, wanted the web to proliferate, and were instrumental in the web proliferating. But despite their understanding of the internet and the web, they still had difficulty managing their own website internally.

Larry:
Interesting. That’ some kind of Escher, Möbius strip thing you just described going on.

Lisa:
That’s correct. That’s correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What that means is that I learned very early that you could have a very large website, that you could have a system published to it down multiple channels, right? They were doing website, making paper books, and burning to CD rom from the same content, from the same single source of the truth, content wise. Right? So, I saw that very, very early. Then I also watched a very early tug of war over control of the website between IT and a marketing department.

Larry:
Oh, interesting.

Lisa:
Inside of an organization that knew about technology. I knew that understanding the technology was separate from being able to manage it well, because… right?

Larry:
Yeah, no, and I’m starting to understand why your book is so great. I mean, obviously, you’re probably the most prominent person doing this work, and now I see it’s like, “Well, no wonder, because she was living in the future 25 years ago, doing the work that everybody still struggles with today.” That’s so fascinating that you were there that early on. I’m curious, I think there’s a current struggle, but managing omni-channel content, which is the evolution of multi-channel, in big enterprises, is a notoriously weird beast. Wrangling that, did they figure it out early at Cisco, or have you been able to help people figure that out because of your background there?

Lisa:
Well, okay, so number one, I don’t help people figure out omni-channel content strategies, just saying that.

Larry:
Yeah.

Lisa:
I was working in that space very early, so had I chosen to do that vocationally, I probably could, but I just want to be clear. I decided to focus on the organizational dynamics that keep people from doing that well. It’s a little bit of a nuance, but that’s really different than being a content strategist or being like Ann Rockley, who writes these big component architectural content statements that push through these systems. She can componentize, as if that’s a word, the content so that it can push through. That’s not what I do, but in order to make that type of sophisticated multi-channel, omni-channel content strategy come to life, all the people that contribute to that content have to be coordinated, and all the people who contribute to that and create that content have to decide that they’re going to follow the same set of rules, right? Global, multi-national, across multiple languages, across multiple geographies, and management power sets. So, making sure that that’s tuned so it can happen, that’s my job.

Larry:
Got it. I just realized, I got so excited about your early work at Cisco, and I’m so focused on content strategy that I went way down that rabbit hole way too soon. I want to back up a little bit and just have you talk a little bit about what is digital governance.

Lisa:
Sure. Yeah, I’m happy to talk about that. Just to close up the story of my existence, after having done some of that work at Cisco for a little bit, like three or four years, I actually left and started my own consulting firm because I figured if a company like Cisco had difficulty managing their very large website, right? That other people would. Right? Because they should be able to, because they understand the technology, but they didn’t. So, that was the beginning of my consulting, which at that time really was around large web content management system deployment. Right? Helping people to do that.

Lisa:
So, from that point of seeing people struggle to implement these large systems across organizations, across geographies within an organization,. that’s when I started to understand the need for governance, right? Because it wasn’t that the technology couldn’t be implemented. When you think about it, it’s not complicated. Right? It takes skill to create a great content model, it takes skill to create a good, relevant, faceted taxonomy with which to tag that content so that you can do omni-channel. That all takes skill. Not dissing that. It takes skill. But, again, people would do that and they still couldn’t implement it. Right?

Lisa:
So, that’s when I was like, “Why is that?” That’s when the organizational dynamics and the governance, which for me means creating a collaboration model so that people can intentionally build something together, right? Not accidentally, but built with intent. Who inside of the organization is responsible for making sure that there’s a strategy in place? Who’s responsible for making sure that you have an appropriate set of policy, an appropriate set of standards, and that operationally, those policies and standards are put in front of the people who need to follow them in order to do good work? Right? If you know who those people are, then those activities can happen.

Lisa:
Consistently, even now, 20 some odd years later, right? More than 20 years later, that is the problem I’m for people. I’m going inside of an organization, and they’re saying, “You know, we’re trying to create or implement this sophisticated content strategy,” or tackle a UX problem, or all of the above. “We’re trying to create a comprehensive, cohesive, good, high quality, safe, online experience for our customers,” citizens, students, whatever it is that you’re trying to do, “And we can’t get our act together as a team because we’re arguing with each other about how to do something, or we just can’t get alignment.” So, I’m really solving this rich people organizational problem.

Lisa:
One of the interesting things that I’ve discovered is that I didn’t de-emphasize, but if I were to write my book again right now, I would probably emphasize more is not only do they not know who should be making the rules, right? Which is what I focus on in Managing Chaos. I’m like, “Once you figure out who these decision makers are, you’re home free.” Right? But what I’m discovering more and more in practice is the reason they can’t figure out who those people are is because when I say, “What is digital for your organization?” They can’t answer the question.

Larry:
Interesting.

Lisa:
Right? They don’t know.

Larry:
Yeah.

Lisa:
If I ask a content person, they’ll give me a very content-centered answer. You ask a marketing communications person, they’ll give you marketing communications. But if you ask someone who is more service oriented or transactionally oriented, I’ll get a slightly different answer or I’ll get channel answers. Oh, it’s just the websites and social media. It’s like, but what about all this transactional stuff and the data? They’re like, “Yeah, that’s IT.” It’s like, “But you surface that data on your website.” “Yeah, but that’s…” so, there’s this very dis-integrated sense of what’s going on in digital.

Lisa:
A lot of times, it’s just making people stop and go, “Okay, give me an intentional definition of digital for your organization. What is the scope of this?” Once that scope becomes clear, what happens is attached to it are the people responsible for maintaining that scope. That’s when you start to get a good sense of who your team is, right? Once you’ve got that in place, then you can start saying, “Who on this team should be accountable for standards around data? Who on this team should be accountable for standards on content?” So, it’s a much more slow-pop process and backwards process than even I thought it was at the time, but I think more and more people are starting to come to that realization as the use of digital becomes more sophisticated. Right? Yeah.

Larry:
Interesting. So, it’s more of a bottom up, emergent kind of thing, than marching into the C-suite and saying, “Here’s how you govern.” Although, let me follow up-

Lisa:
You could do that too.

Larry:
Yeah.

Lisa:
I mean, you could do that too, it’s just that it usually does not happen that way.

Larry:
Right. How many places have… because I know the role of Chief Digital Officer exists, how many places have that role in the C-suite?

Lisa:
I haven’t done a survey, so I don’t know. I can anecdotally say from my own experience, and my clients tend to be large NGOs and large global multinationals. I used to do a lot of government work, like national government work, but I don’t any longer, so that’s my frame of reference for this anecdotal thing. I would say it’s easily less than 25%.

Larry:
Okay. You’d hope for something approximating 100% in the 21st century.

Lisa:
Well, I don’t know. I mean, I wrote a long time ago in blog posts that I think have been deleted that in Lisa’s little perfect governance world, and I could be wrong, I’m suspecting that I might be, but I’ll just stay with it until I know why I’m wrong, digital capacity needs to be embedded everywhere. Creating a Chief Digital Officer in some contexts feels like creating an unnecessary silo.

Larry:
Got it. That makes perfect sense.

Lisa:
Right? What I would rather see is a CEO that understands digital at the strategic level, which is so that they can be strategic and include it in the entire business model, and a chief marketing officer that is sophisticated about digital. Now, that said, that said, I’ll make a broader statement. One of the things that I talk about a lot and that I think about a lot is how the advent of the internet and the web force an enterprise to work differently. I say this a lot. Right? One of those things is, does it actually impact the executive tier and the roles that are required? If one could say, “Yes, you need a chief digital officer now.” Right? Or one could say, “Maybe the actual definition of a CEO has changed to include an understanding of digital capacity.”

Lisa:
Maybe you can’t be a chief operating officer if you don’t know how to operate fiscally and from a resource perspective your online presence. Right? So, I would rather put those old roles on the hook than say, “You can behave just the way you’ve always behaved, and if it’s digital go over here to this digital woman. She’s in charge of that.” Right? I still think we don’t know what the right answer is, and I also think that it might be based on vertical market space. There’s no way that you can be a media company and be led by somebody who is deaf to digital. Right? But you could be a B2B that makes rubber, and maybe.

Larry:
Interesting.

Lisa:
Right? So, it’s complicated. We’re still very early. Right? So, I’m not sure.

Larry:
You know, I think a lot of the people who listen to this podcast and a lot of people in my world are in the native digital world, they’re working on SaaS applications for places like Facebook and Shopify and places like that, when you speak of verticals, that’s not really a vertical as much as it is a business style or something. But anyhow, does that make sense? How does digital governance manifest in those kind of outfits?

Lisa:
Well, those companies are digital first, right? That’s how I think of them. That’s a digital first company, right? They don’t exist if the internet and the web don’t exist. Right? Whereas these other companies often existed prior to that. They have different problems, and they’re kind of reverse engineering problems, which they both have maturity problems, but maturity problems in different ways. A digital first company has some classical enterprise maturity issues. For instance, let’s take Facebook for an example. They’re very progressive about the use of digital, they’re cutting edge on the use of digital, for better, for good and for bad, right?

Lisa:
I’m not going to use this opportunity to do let’s beat up Facebook, because there’s a lot of people who behave like Facebook. That’s no excuse for it, but, I mean, that’s just not the conversation I want to have right now. They’re very progressive and very pushing and forward looking in the use of digital. They probably even have a pretty good set of policy around what they say they’re going to do, and they probably have a pretty good set of standards. We might not like the substance of that policies and standards, but they probably have them.

Larry:
They have them, yeah.

Lisa:
They have them probably.

Larry:
Yeah.

Lisa:
Right? But the problem is, they are not mature enough as an enterprise in order to make sure that those policies and standards are upheld and evenly implemented across their portfolio of products and services. Right? Because they’re immature as a company. So, really far ahead in digital, but immature as an enterprise. On the other hand, if you look at the other, you look at a company that existed prior to the web and is not a digital first company or did not start out a digital first company, right? They might be now newspapers, but weren’t when they started out. Those companies tend to, on broad generalization, be the opposite, which is really mature as an enterprise, which makes people crazy because they can be bureaucratic and slow as molasses, right? In terms of getting work done.

Lisa:
Let’s use pharma as an example of that. Right? Super engineered, super regulated or whatever, so they may not be the most kick-ass, forward-leaning on the use of digital, or they might be now, but if they decide to do something and have a policy, they are mature as an enterprise, and they can implement that policy with throughput very cleanly, because they’re a mature organization. That’s really the two sides of that that I see, which actually makes my job really interesting.

Larry:
No kidding. I mean, you’ve got me… because I think a lot about digital transformation, and I think that term mostly applies to that second group you’re talking about, the existing enterprises that are adapting to digital. But now this notion of enterprise maturity or whatever, those two, they’re kind of intertwingled. Can you give me some examples of – are there general principles that fall out that help people in both camps, or if you’re working with a big SaaS enterprise versus a pharma company, do you just have different things you do with them?

Lisa:
I do the same things. It’s what I spend the most time doing. For a digital first company, when I say to them, I probably wouldn’t even barely ask this question. When I say, what’s your digital scope, we’re going to make a framework. What’s the scope of that framework? Well, it’s our company, because we’re digital first. We don’t have to spend a lot of time doing that. But if I go in one of the other ones, they’re like, “Well, it’s our websites.” I’m like, “Really? Is it just your websites?” We have to go through this whole, “But what about this stuff over here, and this stuff over here, and this data over here?” We have to spend a lot of time figuring out what digital is, right? That’s how that’s reversed. So, it’s the same task, same amount of time.

Lisa:
The next level down, say we’ve defined the framework,
We know who the decisions maker makers are, and we’re actually talking about how do we implement governance? How do we make it so that people can follow policies and standards? Right? In the enterprise that struggled with scope, they’re like, “Oh, we’ve got that. We’ve got a whole policy office over here. This is where we put our policies, this is how we implement. We’ve got education.” They’re like a machine. They’re like an implementation machine, whereas the digital first company is like, “What?” I mean, I think that’s what we see in the .coms, which Facebook had policies that said don’t do what they did, but people still did it because they weren’t implemented well. Do you see what I’m saying?

Larry:
Totally, yeah.

Lisa:
It’s not different activities, it’s what they need to focus on, and it’s actually a disruptive opportunity for a mature enterprise if they wanted to, to disrupt a digital first company that disrupted them. Right?

Larry:
So, Blockbuster could have survived if they had-

Lisa:
Of course. We all know that. No, not me working with them, but I think that was in the early days, I give everybody kind of a break, because everybody got… Blockbuster is one of my favorite examples, and everybody’s favorite example. But I think, let’s forget about that, because that’s almost 30 years ago now. Let’s talk about right now, which is, you have two sets of organizations, all of whom all admit that digital is important and the internet and the web are important. Right? There’s this opportunity, let’s think like healthcare, right? So, I’ve got on my finger, I’m not advertising, one of these Oura rings. I won’t give you the finger because it’s my middle finger. Right?

Lisa:
I love gadgets, like biometrics and all this kind of stuff. Right? So, you’ve got all these new device companies that are coming up, but then you have people that have been making blood glucose monitors forever. Right? And things like that prior to the web. So, I think there’s an opportunity for those traditional companies, those non digital first companies, they could eat this ring’s lunch if they wanted to, if they can wrap their head around the digital use case, because they could probably outperform them when it comes to scaling. Right? If they really wanted to, but they have to want to, and they have to have leadership that wants to and that has a vision to do that. These people could take these other companies out if they can get that organizational maturity part together.

Larry:
Right. Do you have examples of that?

Lisa:
What will probably… I don’t, but what will probably happen to these smaller companies is they’ll get bought by the larger companies. That’s how that acquisition cycle happens. Right? Someone will go, “Yeah, we can’t do that, but look, they already did it. We should have done it. Let’s just buy them.” Right? Because they’ve got pockets. I think the next 30-year cycle is going to be really fun to watch, as we see this thing… everyone’s like, “Okay, digital here, it’s here to stay. What’s going to happen next? A lot of the people who are calling me now are people who are realizing that they can’t proceed to more greater digital maturity until they get their teams together. Right? Which is fun. It’s great.

Lisa:
They’re going, “Okay, if we really want to do this the real way, we’ve burnt through enough staff, making them do crazy work.” Right? “We’ve got to get organized.” They’re also realizing because of the events globally, not just in the US with the election, but just globally of what’s happening online and how people are manipulating web and internet technologies, that things can be unsafe and not safe. It’s time to get serious about it. Right? On a number of different fronts. So, that’s really exciting for me to see.

Larry:
No kidding. Yeah. The use cases are just exploding everywhere. I want to get to one thing. You’ve alluded several times to a maturity model. Do you have a maturity model that you apply to organizations when you work with them?

Lisa:
I have a maturity curve that I use. It’s very similar to a lot of other maturity curves, which just really – I to try and help people identify where they are from a governance perspective. It has to do with the launch of a particular internet or a web channel or whatever. Let’s take mobile. Now, when did you launch that? The dynamics that go around with organic growth, which happens to be when you are figuring out how you’re going to use that technology to meet your goals. Right? My theory is that those dynamics just need to happen. Right? If you take the worldwide web as an example, it’s sad to say, but no matter what we were going to get to this point. We were going to get to this point where things were really, really broken and scary and not safe, because almost every technology comes up that curve that way.

Lisa:
So, where you’re just kind of figuring, “We have this new toy, what are we going to do with it?” And you just rattle around. When you get to this inflection point, that’s where governance becomes important, which is why we’re hearing a lot about policies and standards for the worldwide web, just using that broadly as an example. Right? Unfortunately, before that happens to happen, things do get chaotic. Then you start the next level of not necessarily maturity, but the next level in that process is just getting to this level of basic management. I think of basic management as counting things. Do you know what’s in your digital portfolio? Do you know who’s on your team? Do you know who’s touching what? Just basically getting your arms around it. Right? Most organizations really can’t do a thorough job of that.

Larry:
Something like an audit, like a digital audit?

Lisa:
Yeah. It is really the first step that I work with with people. I mean, audit is a very, very strong word, and it can be applied in a lot of different ways, so I wouldn’t necessarily use that. But one of the things that I ask for when I work with people, is, “What do you have?” Right? “Do you have a list of your websites? Do you know where your social media channels are?” For global multinational, a lot of times they can tell you the main corporate websites, but they don’t really know where all those spunned up marketing things are. Or if you’re an NGO and you’re in the UN’s system, you might know what the headquarters websites are and what the country websites are, but you also have all these partner relationships that use your brand on the ground in interesting countries where you’ve hired some weird, or I shouldn’t say weird, that’s judgmental, just small unknown guy that builds websites. Right?

Lisa:
That’s off in the corner, so you’re not really aware of that, but you’re exposed. Right? So, I’m asking, “How much do you know about your portfolio really?” And then, “Do you know, who’s touching it?” Right? “And do you know who’s making the rules for it?” The answer to that question is always no, but let’s just talk about that. Those are the basics of creating this governing framework. Once you’ve created that governance framework and you’ve got a solid sense of that, and you’re actually able to put the right set of collaboration mechanisms and procedures via policies and standards around people, that’s, when you can actually get to this next level of maturity, which I think of as responsive, and not responsive design like responsive design in the web, but where the organization is responsive. So, when the CEO says, “This is our mission, this is our goals. Here’s what we’re trying to achieve,” embedded in that is digital.

Lisa:
When the CEO turns, digital’s turning with it. It’s integrated into the business so that it’s not this thing hanging out. If I were to make a definition of digital transformation, which I never do, that would be the indicator. An organization that needs to digitally transform is one that has digital integrated with its legacy processes, or if you’re a digital first company, has integrated mature management mechanisms with its digital product and service, so that when it moves, and an example of someone that struggles with that would in rich ways is the automotive industry, because you have connected cars at one end of the spectrum, and you have websites with car configurators on the other end.
In between that, you have car dealerships with their little weird websites selling cars.

Lisa:
There’s so much complexity and you have a nav system in the car, which has a user interface, we should have a decent UX that maybe has data elements that are coming out of the business, but that stuff’s developed around this product line that’s completely disassociated with the people who are doing things like building a car configurator, right? That company is going to really struggle to integrate that, and it’s going to move the business model. It’s going to move the enterprise. It’s going to change the silos around and blend them in different ways. That’s why this isn’t going to move as fast as people would like. That’s going to take time to have that happen.

Lisa:
It’s exciting. It’s very, very exciting to watch. I feel very grateful that the trajectory of my career has worked through this time where we had this super disruptive technology that I’m intellectually really interested in, but also has just all this impact on society and the way we work. I know we’re in a tough spot right now with that right now, as people wake up to the fact that, yes, we need to govern digital spaces, but the beauty is we are waking up to that at this point, so we can just take steps to proceed. I’m really excited for the next 30 years, and hopefully I’ll see all of it.

Larry:
Yeah, I hope so too. You’ve got me more excited about this too, that just adding that management access to the maturity, to the digital part of the maturity, and not just maturity, but the ability to implement and how that… Hey, Lisa, I could literally talk for hours more, but I try to keep these episodes in a manageable time for my listeners. So, I want to wrap up, but before we close, is there anything last, anything that’s just on your mind about digital or…

Lisa:
Yeah. I would say the one thing that I would be would just be a message to any kind of digital maker, whether you’re a content person, backend technologist, or whatever, I talk to you guys a lot in my practice, in my consulting practice, and I know that there’s a large level of stress and frustration, because it’s very difficult to do work right now. I would just add a gentle reminder to do the best work where you can. Right? Where you can is where you are. Right? So, do your best work where you are. Yes, there are some larger picture things, and if you’re at that level where you can impact that as well, but everybody’s got some kind of component that’s right in front of them where they can maybe tune that a little bit better to do a little bit better job. Focus on some of those wins. It’s going to take time for us to get over these challenges, so don’t give up, but also don’t make yourself too crazy in your life while we’re trying to work through this inevitable maturity cycle that we’re all going through.

Larry:
That’s fantastic advice. That’s so perfect. I think a lot of people will appreciate that. Well, thanks so much, Lisa. Oh, one last thing, what’s the best place for folks to contact you to reach out and connect?

Lisa:
I have a contact form at LisaWelchman.com, and also LinkedIn is probably the best place. I have social media accounts, but I’m not the best on social media. I’m working on a second book, and I have attention span issues, so social media and I don’t work very productively well together. But LinkedIn is a place that I am at often, and LisaWelchman.com is a place you can find me. You can hear me talk some more on my Surfacing Podcast that I do with Andy Vitale too.

Larry:
Oh, I’ve listened to a few episodes. I love that. I will definitely link to all that in the show notes. Well, thanks so much, Lisa. Fun conversation.

Lisa:
Yeah. Thanks for having me, Larry. I appreciate it.