Rob Mills: Content Operations – Episode 53

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Rob Mills thinks a lot about content operations. As Head of Content at GatherContent, which provides a content operations platform, he both manages and writes about content ops. So, yes, this episode gets a little meta at times 🙂

Rob sees the growing multidisciplinary nature of content work as a “fun challenge.” He revels in the demands of connecting the many ops worlds that converge in his: content ops, design ops, research ops, and dev ops.

Rob and I talked about:

• his background in journalism, data analysis, agency work as a project manager, and audience research at the BBC
• how the exact scope of his role as the Head of Content at GatherContent changes daily, even hourly
• some of the pioneers in the field of content ops: Deane Barker, Colleen Jones, Rahel Bailie, and Hilary Marsh
• the hallmarks of their approach at GatherContent to content operations: repeatability, scalability, systemization
• the three pillars of content ops: people, process, and technology
• how content ops can help scale operations of any size
• the people challenges in implementing a content operation – e.g., helping large numbers of diverse content creators to understand where their efforts fit in a workflow
• his efforts to scale up the amount of content they create at GatherContent (and how his 2015 self is hindering the effort)
• the challenges of measuring the effectiveness of legacy content
• the difference between being data-informed and data-driven – and the importance of trusting your instincts when reviewing content performance
• how he incorporates qualitative information, like reader correspondence, in his ongoing evaluation of content
• how the evaluation of old content can help you decide where to scale up your new-content efforts
• his involvement in the GatherContent product – proofing content, helping with onboarding scripts, etc.
• the importance of workflow in content operations
• insights from workflow masterclasses he has conducted on how long it takes to produce a “typical” piece of content – 15 hours for a 750-word web page, e.g.
• the hazards of underestimating the time and effort it takes to create content, especially when you’re scaling operations
• how having clearly articulated workflows can help instill accountability and visibility (not blame or finger-pointing) and identify and deal with bottlenecks
• how tools like workflows and style guides can make folks’ lives easier – by showing them how they fit into the process and clarifying their roles
• how the very nature of a workflow can inspire reflection on how to improve it
• the growing multidisciplinary nature of content work
• how the convergence of content ops, design ops, research ops, and dev ops are creating a “fun challenge” for folks who work with content

Rob’s Bio

Robert is Head of Content for GatherContent, the Content Operations Platform. He develops, implements, measures, and refines their content strategy and is editor in chief of the GatherContent blog. He is responsible for organizing, producing, and publishing all GatherContent’s educational webinars, books, and assets.

He’s a journalism graduate, ex-BBC audience researcher, and former studio and project manager.

Robert has written for leading web publications including UX Booth, Content Marketing Institute, Smashing Magazine, and WebTuts. He has spoken at events including Confab, ContentEd, LavaCon Conf, and Content Strategy Forum amongst others. You can find him on Twitter @RobertMills.

Video

Here’s the video version of our conversation:

Podcast Intro Transcript

If you publish digital content at any scale, you are running a content operation. It might be a single informal workflow that adds one or two posts to your blog every month. Or you might be running a huge multimedia, omnichannel operation that publishes around the clock. As the head of content at GatherContent, Rob Mills thinks a lot about both how to run his own content operation and how to help others run theirs. I hope you enjoy as much as I did our conversation about content ops and the growing multidisciplinary nature of content work.

Interview Transcript

Larry:
Hi everyone. Welcome to episode number 53 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I’m really happy today to have with us Rob Mills. Rob is the Head of Content at GatherContent, which is a content services operation. So it’s a little meta today, we have a content guy talking about content. And specifically what I want to talk to Rob about is content ops and a little bit about content operations, and then about content workflow. But first Rob, welcome and tell the folks a little bit more about your background.

Rob:
Hello. Thank you for having me. A pleasure to be here today. Yeah, well we were just chatting before we hit record there about the fact that my background is in journalism, which I think is a fairly common route into content strategy. When I was at university, content strategy wasn’t a thing in terms of a job title, so I never aspired to be a content strategist.

Rob:
And so my experience is journalism, and then I worked in data analysis roles, so firstly with local governments and that was focused around pupil members and schools but you know, gained some good experience there in analytics and disseminating information to stakeholders. And then took up a role in the BBC doing audience research, which has been very valuable for the role I find myself in today.

Rob:
And then in between kind of the BBC and joining GatherContent four years ago, worked agency side, which has also proved to be very useful when I think about content and challenges and the issues that it can cause projects. So yeah, worked agency side as a kind of studio product manager and touched on content in some capacity, but it was never my full time role until I joined GatherContent in 2015 as a content strategist, and in February of this year moved into head of content. So still the only content person at GatherContent, although other people do write content and kind of get involved, but officially the only content person. And that’s a role that changes not just daily, but hourly.

Larry:
No, and that’s a super common thing. Even, that’s so … I mean it’s like even at GatherContent, an organization that’s explicitly and specifically about content, helping people with your content, there’s only one content guy. It’s like, come on, we got to do better. But anyhow, that’s a bigger … that’s a wider industry conversation.

Larry:
But one of the things I wanted to ask you about Rob, is content operations. It’s like a really … it’s of great concern to a lot of people now. And it’s a really interesting thing. I mean, we both come out of … I come out of book publishing and then in journalism and online publishing, and so I feel like I’ve been operationalizing content creation for a long time, and you have too as a journalist.

Larry:
But it’s really … but I think there’s unique things about digital content and the way things work now but also just in general, the melding of a creative process and managing it. You know, those are two ends of a spectrum. So tell me a little bit about … well, first just kind of your take on content operations because I know you have a pretty well defined way that you look at it at GatherContent. But just tell me about your take on content ops and how you do it there.

Rob:
Yeah, it’s something we’ve been writing about and talking about a lot more this year. It’s certainly … we don’t claim to be the first people to mention content ops. You know, we found definitions from Deane Barker from years ago, and I know Colleen Jones and Rahel Bailie, and lots of other people, Hilary Marsh, have all been writing and saying great things about content ops.

Rob:
I think for us it kind made sense as a business. I think we struggled as a business to think what are we, are we a content strategy tool or like … we struggled with our own identity. And then GatherContent is a content operations platform, which whilst I appreciate that, doesn’t mean much to … it’s not what people are searching as such, to help them with their content problems.

Rob:
But for us as a business it made sense in terms of right, it is about the operationalizing of content and it’s about the repeatability and the scalability and the systematization. Lots of words in that sentence I struggle to say, but you know, systematizing your content. And so for us it made sense in terms of what GatherContent can do as a product in the functionality. So you know, embedding a style guide, having a workflow, structured content templates, and so on.

Rob:
But we’ve been trying to think beyond that, and what does content ops mean. Obviously there’s been dev ops and research ops and design ops, so it was perhaps inevitable that we’d end up with content ops. And I think it’s something that even though lots of people might not be like oh, this is my content operations or oh, I need to improve my content operations, at GatherContent we kind of think along the lines that if you’re publishing digital content, then there’s going to be a person or people involved in that, there’s going to be a process and may not be the most efficient process. You may have filed too many review stages and you know, it may still take ages, but there’ll be a process nonetheless.

Rob:
And there’ll be some technology whether that is marked and automized automation tools or GatherContent or CMS. And those three things, what we’re calling at GatherContent, the three pillars of content ops and again, lots of other definitions. And Deane and Colleen have touched on it, it’s people, process and technology.

Rob:
And so for us it’s very much … lots of organizations will have content operations, they may not call it that and it may not be deliberate. They may not have considered those pillars and how they fit together to optimize and scale and automate and personalize and all those other things that we’re trying to achieve as content people, but they’ve got operations, content ops nonetheless. And so we’re just trying to kind of define our own vocabulary around this, you know?

Rob:
And again, we had a very brief chat just before you hit record saying there’s so many job titles and we can get bogged down in semantics for certainly the duration of this podcast. But I think, so for us at GatherContent here, we’re just trying to define our own vocabulary. So we’re saying there’s three pillars of content ops, people, process, technology. And then within that there’s elements of content operations, one of which we’ll be talking more about today, which is workflow and then style guides and clearly defined goals, governance, plans and structured templates and stuff. So that’s kind of where where we’re at with it in a nutshell, I suppose.

Larry:
Yeah. And there’s a lot in what you just said, but one of the things that’s super interesting to me is that everybody has a process. I mean, if you just download WordPress, do the five minute install and you publish a blog post, you have just implemented a work … a content operation process. How … like a tool like GatherContent and there’s other ways you can do this as well, I mean, but just that idea of being articulate, I love that you start with people, and that’s like … if there’s one thing that’s come through in this series of interviews, it’s content strategy is 99% about people and then processes, but then also technology obviously is huge in the world we operate in.

Larry:
Tell me how, and you mentioned the word scale just a minute ago, so tell me about how content ops, because you’ve seen this a lot, you’ve probably started with clients or customers who have very small operations and kind of scale up, tell me a little bit about how … it kind of makes sense on its face that content operations would help you scale, but tell me a little bit about how that helps.

Rob:
Yeah, I think it depends on what area you’re focused on. I think that by having structured content templates for example, will allow you to perhaps get your content in a more consistent way. If you’re using … if you’ve got lots of different content creators or lots of different subject matter experts, having a style guide could allow you to scale by empowering people to be able to write content in a way that’s needed. So there are lots of different ways and it’s very much about repeatable processes being able to systematize.

Rob:
But to bring it back to your point about people, I mean, the reason why I think that’s at the crux of this is because you can have the right technology for what you need with a CMS for example, but you still need to get the person to use that technology. You can have a content style guide, but that’s very much a very small part of that challenge, you know, getting people to use that style guide is another battle in itself.

Rob:
And so I think it does come back to people in every instance, whichever part of content ops you’re touching, and content strategy does come back to people. And I think you know, we’ve seen with some of our customers where through their content ops, they’re allowing their technology, if we just stay with that pillar of contextual, to do the heavy lifting so that their people can focus on their area of expertise. So they don’t want people to be spending more time than necessary trying to figure out how to use the technology to approve a piece of content, they just need them to improve it and move on to wherever that next bit is.

Rob:
And we’ve seen that a lot in universities, especially where the people involved in the workflow, perhaps academics, so they very much have other responsibilities that they need to deliver. And so it’s not necessarily … content may not be on their job description or certainly not top of their to do list or their priority, but they still need to provide that content about their course or to approve that content about their course.

Rob:
So I think it’s … in their own way they can allow a business to scale, but it’s when you kind of consider the whole I think, you can start to really leverage each. So I think having a style guide, having a workflow actually is one thing, but you still need clearly defined roles at each point of that workflow.

Rob:
So again, a workflow in isolation, if you kind of you know, let’s create a split workflow for this project, I think that’s valuable. But if people don’t know … they may know where they fit in that workflow, but they may not know what they’re doing when it gets to them, you know? And similarly, you could have a team of really clearly defined roles and you could have used a RACI matrix and you’ve done everything you can to get people clear on what their role is and their tasks and their deliverables and their deadlines, but if they don’t know how it all fits together in the process or in the workflow, then again it comes undone.

Rob:
So I think content ops is considering all of these areas which is no mean feat by any stretch of the imagination, and just trying to optimize, I suppose, have the right people on board, get the right technology in place, the right processes, and collectively allow yourself to scale.

Rob:
So I’m trying to scale at GatherContent just in terms of the amount of content we’re producing. And it’s challenging, it’s absolutely challenging. I’m spending lots of time doing manual tasks at the moment because my 2015 self didn’t take enough care over his content and it’s just … you know, I’m paying for it now, but that’s part of the challenge of scaling. So I’m very much trying to figure out our own operations, I suppose, how I can invest in there to help with that scalability as well.

Larry:
Hey now, you just hit on something that comes up a lot again in these interviews is, 2015 Rob is haunting 2019 Rob with all that extra content he created. The very first interview I did a couple of years ago was with a guy at the UW, University of Washington here in Seattle who talked about do we really need any more stories? Do we need any more content?

Larry:
And so you mentioned that you’d done a stint in analytics like the school stuff and other things you’ve done. It seems like an important part of content operations would be the analytics and the content effectiveness, like what Colleen Jones would call content effectiveness measurement. And tell me about how kind of culling old content, like the haunting copy from 2015 that you wrote, and does that fit into content operations?

Rob:
Yeah, and Colleen does very much talk about content effectiveness with her book The Content Advantage, which has like a content operations maturity model in it. So yeah, absolutely, they dovetail nicely together.

Rob:
I think being completely candid, the kind of measurement side of content is the bit that I struggle with the most. Even though my background is in data, it was very much through a different lens I suppose, and those roles were yes, I used to analyze the data, but the main job there was disseminating that. So I’d go up to program makers and say, this is your audience and from this we can make informed decisions about the content for the next season of wherever this program or radio show ever might’ve been.

Rob:
I find with … you know, and so I have been going through this related to the last two weeks, 400 and something blog posts migrating from one CMS to another. And it’s been really interesting because if I based it purely on data, then I’d be silly I think. Because I think it’s one thing to be data informed but not necessarily data-driven because I still believe, and I’m sure there are lots of people who might be listening or watching this who would say Rob, no, no, no, but I believe that your instinct for content still goes a long way.

Rob:
I intrinsically know our content so well and yes, I can look at the data, but I’ll see something that’s been published three years prior isn’t as well surfaced, so it’s not going to get as much traffic unless it’s been optimized. So there’s so many different facets to consider. So for me, I’ve got rid of some blog posts because they’re just out of date in terms of the thinking and our opinions have just moved on since that was written like maybe four years ago, and I’ve removed them for that reason, although you could argue there’s some value in being able to reflect on those thoughts and what they represented at the time that they were created.

Rob:
Some posts I’ve removed because again I’ve just written … I’ve repurposed rather than just removed them with more up to date thinking. But I have been informed by the data, and there are certain topics that haven’t worked well for the blog. And most of the content has stayed. I have to admit, most of it has stayed. I know again, there are debates about is content ever really evergreen and so on, but I think the reader can decide whether that’s something worth quoting or referencing or linking to depending on the age of the content.

Rob:
But it’s something I’m still trying to get my head around in terms of … the data’s one side, the instinct is another side, pairing those, and also just trying to look at how that content is working for the business in terms of our business goals, you know. Of course it’s a product that has quite clear goals around what we’re trying to do as a business with growing that. And then just the audience side of it. You know, every time I email I ask people, is this useful? Is this interesting? What do you want to hear about? And again, that gives me almost like an innate understanding about content’s working well.

Rob:
But yeah, I have culled some stuff based on data, and I think you don’t want to scale the wrong thing. I don’t want to, okay, I’ll do full more webinars this month and those topics aren’t resonating or they’re not performing for whatever reason, whereas that criteria is for measuring that content. So of course it goes hand in hand with content ops because you want to scale content that’s going to be an asset for your audience and/or for your business.

Larry:
Yep. No, I think that everything you just said, we all do that all the time. And I think it’s the … I love the way you put that content informed, or data informed, not data-driven because I think analytics is just part of that overall effectiveness measure. And we all have … there’s so much qualitative stuff and that kind of gets into … do you work on the product at all at GatherContent? Do you-

Rob:
Yeah, so I mean, it’s not the biggest percentage of my time. Most of my work is on our education resources, the blog, that kind of community side. But yeah, I do get involved. I recently helped out with a new onboarding sequence. I proof a lot of content for the team. Some might be help articles for customer success, emails to sales. Sometimes I get involved. I have two hour meetings with our product director and cofounder about a word on a button, you know. And it’s just … so I do get involved in that but it’s a smaller part of my role, yeah.

Larry:
The reason I asked you this because out of that world, that’s where all the UX people are and all that qualitative research and all the … there’s a lot of … I think it’s one of my favorite things about content strategy is it’s a great commingling of a lot of different disciplines where we can all learn from one another and I kind of … my hope and pretty strong hunch is that over time we’ll all be better as a discipline because of adopting and just figuring out how those folks operate and then incorporating that.

Larry:
But the other thing I wanted to talk to you about is specifically in the content ops world, one of the most important aspects of that is the idea of workflow. You mentioned earlier, and one of the things … I think one of the benefits of having a workflow, you mentioned both you know, we’re dealing with creative content creator types and then subject matter experts and then just production stuff, there’s all these different kind of often not at odds with one another, but very different kinds of capabilities and needs that are happening in a workflow is kind of how you stitch them together, right? Is that … or give me your take on workflow and how it can help a content operation.

Rob:
Yeah, I think it is. It’s very much the stages a piece of content will go through from whatever you define as your start and end point. So the first stage of a workflow could be writing a content brief, and the final stage of a workload might be publish. I know there’s some, their workflows then go into kind of the maintenance and governance cycles as well, so it very much depends. But yeah, it’s very much those stages that a piece of content will pass through.

Rob:
And we do this thing in our masterclass where we have what we call a typical workflow for a webpage. And you could argue there’s no such thing as a typical anything in content., but we do have … it’s what we call it. And it’s a … we base it on a 750 word webpage. So no additional kind of other assets or media, just 750 words and an information page on a website. And we ask all the attendees to go through this spreadsheet, this workflow, allocate a piece of time to each stage.

Rob:
So how long do you think it’ll take you to write the brief? How long do you think it’ll take you to upload to CMS? How long do you think it’ll take you to review, all those things. On the … we’ve done this masterclass dozens of times, just thousands of attendees over the last few years, and the average is 15 hours. For me it’s just like, that never fails to make me shudder because if … again it’s like some people, they would would have come in much lower and some people much higher, you know, 15 is the average.

Rob:
But regardless of which side of that fence do you sit, I think the learning there is that content is … it takes time and it’s often underestimated. And so thinking … going back to our conversation a couple of minutes ago with scaling and content ops, if that’s how long it takes to get a 750 word page, a straight forward page published, then I might just scale up to all of the other content and all of the people involved in that. And I just think if there’s no process to drive that and to guide that, then you’re setting yourself up for even more challenges in an already challenging environment.

Rob:
And again, bringing it back to our chat about people, you can have a workflow, it doesn’t mean you can get John in legal to do what he needs to do when he needs to do it, you know, but at least you’ve got a way. And I think coming back to your question about the benefits of a workflow which is generally for content ops, for me it’s very much about accountability. So yes, there’s this process, who’s doing what when in what order. And it’s not straightforward, like workflows are literally not always linear. It’s not always we need to go from this stage to this stage. You know, there’s feedback loops and marketing and legal, and there’s all of these different elements within that.

Rob:
But it’s about accountability, and I think sometimes accountability gets mistaken for blame and finger pointing, and I can understand that. I know if you’ve identified that Merrill is a bottleneck, it doesn’t mean that Merrill is not good at a job or doesn’t care, it could be that Merrill’s just got too much to do, you know? And so I think actually having a workflow allows you to identify those bottlenecks and try to circumnavigate them or avoid them before it gets too late, and so it’s there to help people. But I think accountability is needed for progression and movement.

Larry:
Right. You just reminded me, you mentioned an acronym earlier that most of us probably have heard, but I just want to explain it right because I think it’s relevant to what you just said. You mentioned RACI earlier, which is R-A-C-I, which is for in any … and this is relevant to workflows I think because in any point in a workflow you’re talking about who’s Responsible for this, who’s Accountable for this, who just needs to be Consulted, and who just needs to be Informed. And that’s what when you’re talking about accountability there, is it in that sort of context?

Rob:
Yeah, I think … I’ve seen certainly when I was agency side, oh, I didn’t know that was my job and I didn’t know that I needed to do that. So I think it’s down to that level of the task-based, being accountable for writing that content, reviewing that content and approving that content.

Rob:
But then I think there’s a higher level of accountability, which is that person is responsible for making sure that content’s delivered. So they’re not writing, reviewing and approving, but they’re overseeing. So again, it’s one thing to have a workflow, but you still need somebody who is keeping on top of that and looking for those bottlenecks and trying to avoid those pitfalls and trying to help those people and all those things.

Rob:
And I think this is why content is challenging, isn’t it, because it’s not just here’s a workflow, find me later. It’s like here’s a workflow, now we need to assign people. Oh, and now we need to figure out what those people need to do and what their priorities are. And there’s so many components we need to stitch together, as you said. But a workflow can help with that. It’s not the only solution, but yeah, absolutely.

Rob:
I think it’s again, thinking back to the work I do, even for the weekly newsletter we have a workflow. We used to have the content of the same … we didn’t, but we have a workflow within that. And there’s only two of us involved in that, and it’s very much … yeah, you know. It kind of just brings a bit of order to the chaos, I think.

Larry:
Yeah. Well, I think a lot of the things you just said, like if Merrill’s the bottleneck and it’s like why? It’s like there’s so many reasons it could be there, and one of the top level benefits it seems to have a workflow is just that objective information about okay, here’s what’s going on, just a point of inquiry to dig deeper as to what exactly is going on at that point.

Larry:
And anyhow, that just seems to be one of the higher … are there other obvious benefits that like … because you’re so deep in it, sometimes I feel like I need to pull the fish out of the water and get you to look back down. Are there other top level benefits of just having a workflow that occur to you?

Rob:
Yes. I think it’s very much a case of accountability and visibility. I think with anything to do with content, I think sometimes it can seem like, oh, it’s like it’s, you know, it’s always another thing I need to do, going to another workshop to define this, I need to do another meeting for that.

Rob:
And I say things like workflow and style guides and whatever other kind of tools and things we use, I think they’re there to make people’s lives easier and better. So they’re not there to bog people down in oh, a process or another way of working, another tool to learn, it’s there to make people’s lives easier. And I think identifying that bottleneck isn’t the blame game. It’s there, right, if someone is a bottleneck, why is that? Do we need more writers? You know, do we need to give them … take them off something else to give them time to do this? So you can identify other issues I think, through having a workflow and of course all these kinds of other things as well.

Rob:
I think you can … it also breaks down something that can seem quite overwhelming into manageable tasks, I think, especially if you’re … you know, not everybody involved is going to need to be involved at every stage. So it’s good for them to have a view of, okay, this is the entire process and this is where I fit in and this is what’s happened before me and this will happen after me and who’s involved either side, but you probably only need to know that smaller part, that smaller component, and I think a workflow can break that down.

Rob:
I think it also gets teams really thinking about their operations, bringing it back to that now, and do we need three stages of approval and do we need eight stages for review and who actually needs to be responsible for that. So I think it forces perhaps those conversations that might be more awkward into thinking about who do we need and why. So if you don’t serve a purpose, then you shouldn’t be in the workflow because you’re just going to be … it’s just going to be causing delays and the whole thing with too many cooks, but it’s more like too many stakeholders or too many subject matter experts and so on, and then if you don’t have those stages and you can’t really think about who needs to be responsible, who’s the best person for the job.

Rob:
So I think by definition the workflow, another advantage of that is allowing you to really think about the team that you need to deliver content through that process that you’ve defined. So yes, it provides accountability, but it also provides a level of clarity. What’s needed from who, by when, and that in itself I think is enough of a … that plus kind of identifying the potential blockers and delays and so on I think, is enough of an advantage for sort of taking the time to think early on by what processes we can commit to, to deliver this content.

Larry:
Yep. No, that makes sense. Hey Rob, I noticed we’re coming up on time. This always goes so fast. But hey, I always like to give my guests an opportunity before we wrap up. Is there anything last … anything I haven’t asked you about content ops or content workflows or anything about content strategy that’s just on your mind? Anything that you want to make sure we share?

Rob:
I’m glad you asked. There is. It’s more picking up a conversation I had earlier actually, and it’s just about … and you’ve mentioned this in this chat actually about how being multidisciplinary, as individuals and as teams, and it’s just something that I’m seeing more of.

Rob:
You know, I think lots of content people, myself included, say we wear so many hats, we wear so many hats, and I think that’s true, but for me in the past that’s been more to do with I write, I edit, I publish, I distribute, I measure, like all those things. But I think I’m seeing more of a … less of a swim-lane mentality with roles and things just becoming a bit more crossover. So content and UX, one in the same, content and accessibility and inclusivity and usability, all of these things I think are merging and people are taking on multidisciplinary roles.

Rob:
And so I think that’s really important in relation to the theme of this chat with content ops. If there are people who are in increasingly more multidisciplinary roles or sitting on multidisciplinary teams, what implication does that have for understanding your role and the agreement and the workflow? You know, what technology do we need?

Rob:
So I think … and even things, again from some conversations that I’ve had recently with content style guys becoming part of design systems because they just need to become part of a bigger ecosystem. And so that does naturally bring content and design and UX and dev all together. And so I think it’s important that these disciplines, they’ve got their own ops, design ops, research ops, dev ops, content ops, but then there is that challenge now, how do all those ops fit together for the complete organizational operations. And I think as a content person, that’s a fun challenge to be faced with in trying to think about how can we bring these systems together and all these operations with the utmost efficiency.

Larry:
Yeah. I like the way you put that, “a fun challenge.” That’s what we all have out ahead of us, I think.

Rob:
Optimistic.

Larry:
No, I really think it is, too. Well, thanks so much Rob. We really enjoyed the conversation.

Rob:
Thank you, Larry. Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed it too. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Larry:
Great. Cheers.