Sara Wachter-Boettcher: Design and Content Leadership – Episode 82

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Sara Wachter-Boettcher helps design and content professionals discover and express their leadership ability.

Leaders can come from anywhere. You don’t have to be in a management role. With some personal work and a little courage, you can lead from wherever you are in the digital design and content world.

Sara and I talked about:

• the difference between leadership and management
• her definition of leadership
• the importance of recognizing that you don’t have to be in a management role to lead
• the need for leadership in our current world situation
• the many internal and external messages that can lead to impostor syndrome
• the many ways to beging developing the reflection and other inner skills that are the foundation of leadership
• how work culture and tech culture can suppress our humanness
• the importance of recognizing what you bring to the leadership game as you observe and model other leaders
• the very real and justified bases for having some fear around speaking up as a leader
• the importance of periodically taking a realistic assessment of the amount of risk you can take – identifying the times when it’s OK to be bold
• how to recognize that you have grown and when to make choices that you might not have made a couple of years earlier
• her personal challenges with balancing her identity as a content strategist with her current focus on coaching (especially in 2020)
• the importance in challenging times of checking in with yourself and thinking about what you need to do – “Are you willing to pause and listen to your gut?”

Sara’s Bio

Sara Wachter-Boettcher is an author, speaker, coach, and strategist dedicated to changing design and tech for good. She’s the founder of Active Voice, a coaching and training company helping organizations build radical, courageous leadership practices.

Her most recent book, Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, was named one of the best tech books of the year by Wired. She also wrote Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer) and Content Everywhere, and has been published in The Washington Post, The Guardian, and McSweeney’s. Find her at home in Philly, on Twitter @sara_ann_marie, or at sarawb.com.

Resources Mentioned in the Podcast

• Brené Brown‘s leadership website
• Denise Jacob’s Banish Your Inner Critic book

Video

Here’s the video version of our conversation:

Podcast Intro Transcript

There’s a clear distinction between management and leadership. The two practices are often conflated, but they’re really quite different. Sara Wachter-Boettcher helps design and content professionals understand the differences and become effective leaders. You need to do some serious self assessment, and you’ll probably need to take some risks, but the benefits of improving your leadership game can be enormous. At the very least, you’ll grow as a person. At best, you can restore some humanity to a sometimes bleak digital work culture.

Interview Transcript

Larry:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 82 of the Content Strategy Insights Podcast. I’m really happy to be welcoming back Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Sara was on the show, god, more than two years ago, way back in the early days. I’m really happy to have you back. Sara, for the two of you who don’t know who she is, I’ll just quickly talk about, Sara’s a long time or a real content strategy pioneer, a UX practitioner, and she’s moved on now, and that’s what we’re going to talk about today, into more leadership roles around content and design practice. She’s really, I think, justifiably well known for the book she’s done, Content Everywhere, Design for Real Life, and Technically Wrong. But anyhow, welcome to the show, Sara. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you’re up to these days and welcome.

Sara:
Yeah, sure. Thank you, Larry, it’s great to be back. So, yeah, I now run a practice called Active Voice where we do leadership and learning programs for people in tech and design. So I do one on one coaching, I do a group program for courageous leaders, and I work with organizations to deliver training programs on topics around leadership issues that I see design, content, and tech teams really needing. So how do we have braver conversations at work? How do we handle those kinds of difficult situations? How do we get unstuck when it feels like we can’t move forward? And how do we speak up and build influence within an organization? It’s been a few months since I started doing that, and it has been so rewarding and interesting to step into that role.

Larry:
Nice. And it comes right out of your work in content and design, the need for this kind of thing. And that’s what I wanted to talk about today, because you’ve made a transition from sort of practice to leadership stuff. And my intent with this podcast is to just democratize the field and get all the good stuff out there so other people can steal your great ideas and do better work. And so, I’d love to talk a little bit about, first of all, just what is leadership? We kind of know it, but what kind of skills do you cultivate? How do you recognize it?

Sara:
Yeah. So, the thing about leadership, as I think it’s often conflated with management and I think management practices are really important. I’ve been a manager, and to be honest, I was totally unprepared for it when I was a manager, before I was consulting, and I think management skills absolutely need to be honed as well, I probably could have used a lot more training there. But I think leadership goes so much beyond management, management is one place where you might be using your leadership skills.

Sara:
And so, what I would say is that leadership really starts with self knowledge, with understanding who you are, having some courage of conviction, being able to speak to why it is you’re doing what you’re doing, being able to kind of stand up for what you know is right and true, and kind of operating in that place of having some confidence. And when you do that, being able to bring people along with you. Not because you’re being forceful, not because you’re leading from this place of creating fear, which you see a lot of “leaders” doing, but because you are authentically communicating like, “Here’s what I’m seeing, here’s what I want to see happen.” And people buy into it, they buy into it because they can sort of believe in what you’re up to.

Sara:
Also, I really like the Brené Brown definition of leadership, she talks about taking responsibility for finding the potential in people and then having the courage to develop that potential. And I do think that that is a component of leadership as well. If you’re not thinking about the people that you hope to lead, and if you’re not fundamentally concerned with how you can help them become more of who they are and better at what they do, then I don’t think you can possibly be a very good leader.

Larry:
Right. I love the way you contextualize that because I think a lot of people do conflate it with management, and then all that stuff you said, though, you don’t have to be in management to do most of those things, you just-

Sara:
You don’t.

Larry:
Yeah.

Sara:
You don’t, and in fact, I think that that’s one of the things I really want people to hear, because I started doing this work because I found that I was over and over again in kind of content strategy consulting projects, or when I would be doing like a speaking gig within an organization, talking about bias and harm and technology. What I found was that people would kind of say like, “Yes, I love this. I want to be able to speak up about this, but I’m too scared. I feel nervous. I am worried if it’s too risky to make a stand for something, or I don’t have a seat at the table.”

Sara:
And what would happen is that people would kind of use all of these reasons, and the reasons themselves might all be fully valid and real and true, but they would use those reasons to basically sit back down and not do anything and kind of keep their head down, stick to the status quo. And of course, if you look around the world right now, or you look around the tech industry or design industry right now, the status quo is not working very well. We do not need that, it’s not going great. We need people who are willing to change things.

Sara:
And what I found was that that was something people were craving, but often felt kind of shut down very quickly when they would try to do it. They didn’t really have the tools to do it. And so, what I wanted to be able to do was to say like, “Well, if I believe in organizations making better, more inclusive decisions around design and content, then more of these people need to feel empowered, to kind of have more courage at work and to take some risks. And how can I do that?” And so that’s what actually led me here.

Larry:
And that seems like the really powerful thing that we all need. Something that’s come up many times in this series of interviews is imposter syndrome. And you just mentioned empowerment a few minutes ago, I think a lot of content strategists, and designers as well, but more content people than design people, in my experience, feel that sense of not being empowered. How have you helped people, because you’ve done a great job with yourself. You’re rocking it, you’re out there in front of us, but how can we… Can we follow you and become better leaders? What can we learn from what you’re up to?

Sara:
Yeah. Well, I guess I would say you can’t be a better leader by trying to be like me. You can’t be a better leader by trying to be like anyone. You can learn things from people who have found their voices or who are really good at bringing a team together or a million other leadership skills. But I think, fundamentally, what you have to be able to do is figure out what kind of leader you are. And in fact, imposter syndrome comes up in almost every conversation I think I’ve had in coaching, imposter syndrome or the inner critic, or sort of just like self doubt getting in the way. And the reality is that that comes up for everyone. That’s human and the only people who don’t experience those feelings ever are narcissists and sociopaths. And those are very rare. So the rest of us have to deal with those feelings.

Sara:
But what you also layer in there is what are the societal messages that you’re getting? So this is where I would say it’s also a gendered and racialized conversation. So, the more you are part of underrepresented groups or undervalued groups in your field, the more likely you are to have received a bunch of messages about how you don’t belong and you don’t deserve and et cetera. And I think that that’s a huge piece of it.

Sara:
And then I would say a smaller piece of it is more of that skills-based part where people from, let’s say, content strategy or content design or UX writing, they are often getting some of that too that’s coming from being undervalued in their organization, their practices being deemed less important or not essential, or there’s one UX writer to 17 designers working on all these products. So those external messages, those are real things that you’re getting. So I think sometimes imposter syndrome gets talked about as just this thing in your head that you manifested all by yourself, when actually it’s like, no, it’s a result of a normal human thing combined with receiving lots of external messages about your value.

Sara:
And what we do about it is, we have to actually… So, when we actually invest time in thinking about who we are, what we care about, what really matters to us, what we’re great at, and we can draw upon specific examples of those things, when we know that about ourselves, then it’s not that those doubts go away, it’s just that we’re able to kind of say like, “Yeah. Okay. I hear you.” And then tamp them down. And so, for leaders, I think that they’re just better at being able to recognize like, “Yep, there’s that voice again. Okay, I don’t need that right now. Let me refocus on what I know is important here.”

Larry:
Yep. A couple of kind of pragmatic things about your development as a leader occured to me out of that, what you just said. One, you’re right. I mean, so many of us are concerned with equity and diversity inclusion and justice and we don’t see that at work all the time. And so there’s a lot of people who… So, for any one individual, you might have some extra stuff that you have to deal with, but regardless of what your constraints are, getting over them, to what you were just saying, the very end of that part that you were talking about, kind of coaching yourself, talking to yourself about like, “Yep, that’s great. You have imposter syndrome. Maybe you can set that aside and just do what needs to be led right now.” Can people do that on their own or do you recommend that people find a coach or are there books or resources, how do you help people across that?

Sara:
Yeah. I mean, yes, getting a coach is great. Obviously I started doing coaching because I found that it was really powerful and helpful for people, but I also think that there’s a ton of stuff you can do on your own, or you can do… Yes, there’s lots of books on… I think Denise Jacob’s book about managing your inner critic or banishing your inner critic. Forgive me for the title problems, would be a wonderful place-

Larry:
I’ll look it up and get it right in the show notes …

Sara:
… for you a lot. I think it’s Banish Your Inner Critic. She’s wonderful. I mean, there’s a lot of resources out there that can help you kind of coach yourself through this. I think the biggest thing that I would say is that it’s about developing a practice of not only kind of looking around at all of the external examples you can see and really allowing yourself to look inward.

Sara:
And for a lot of us, that is a hard practice, that kind of deep reflection work, because you kind of have to face a bunch of things. You got to face the stuff you’ve been avoiding and that sucks, it just does. And yet, when you do that, when you are willing to face the stuff you’ve been avoiding, when you’re willing to kind of look at it and go like, “Well, where are those feelings coming from? What tends to trigger that response? What about these situations makes me feel so defensive or so kind of unsafe?” Then you start getting at some, “Oh, there’s some deep stuff there.” And it gives you something more concrete to kind of work through.

Sara:
A lot of this sounds like it’s deep internal work and it’s like, “Is that really what you do at work?” And my sense is that I think one of our problems is that work culture and tech culture, they have really discouraged talking about feelings and sort of being honest about the ways in which we are human. And it turns out, you can avoid talking about feelings, you can avoid being a human at work, but you still are and you still have them. And the reluctance to make that a just sort of normalized part of our work is what actually holds us back in so many circumstances. And so, it can feel a little uncomfortable to kind of like go there in a work scenario, and yet once you start doing that, so many things unlock that seemed sort of like impossible before.

Larry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), you’re reminding me of, I don’t know if you knew who Frederick Taylor was, he was kind of one of the founders of modern management practice and ergonomics and stuff as well, but anyhow, a lot of what you’re saying is… So much of management practice is mired in 20th century industrial thinking. And a lot of that stuff you just said, I think can come out of that. I think about like Dan Pink’s book Drive and what actually motivates people. I don’t know if you’ve read that, but he talks about autonomy, mastery, and purpose are the things that drive cognitive work people.

Larry:
And so, I just wondered, and it kind of goes back to what we started off with is this conflation of management and leadership. It seems like teasing them out and kind of being aware of bad management practice and how it’s impairing your ability to lead, is that part of the challenge getting over that and figuring out how to… Does that make sense?

Sara:
Yeah. And I think that that’s going back to what I was saying about sort of looking externally. So if you’re just looking around at all of the managers that you know and trying to figure out what kind of leader you are, that’s really hard. I think you can identify strengths people have, and you can model off of their behavior, absolutely. I mean, if I didn’t steal ways of being from what I saw in the world, where would I be? But I do think that what I see people oftentimes do is they go chasing all of that without having thought about like, “Well, what am I bringing and who am I here?”

Sara:
For me, for example, I made a really specific choice a long time ago that I really like kind of making my own thing, I don’t actually love working in an organization longterm. I love being able to show up in an organization and provide value for limited engagements, but I found that working in an organization where I was sort of maybe leading a small team within a bigger thing, within a bigger thing, within a bigger thing, it was hard for me to feel like I was getting enough of that sort of autonomy itch scratched, and I couldn’t necessarily change course when I wanted to. I didn’t necessarily have the ability to say, “You know what, I want to try something different. I want to take a risk. I want to stop doing this and start doing that.” And those kinds of things are really valuable to me.

Sara:
I also realized that the place that I am, I think, at my strongest, from a leadership perspective, is in communicating ideas. And I realized that one of the things that I can do is, I’m perceptive, I notice a lot and I can reflect that out in ways where people go, “Yes, that’s the thing.” And that is really powerful, and that is an important piece of leadership, but that’s not necessarily going to help you manage a team, and that’s a very different kind of leadership.

Sara:
And what I found was that the strengths that I have as a leader are strengths that really work well for me being sort of this independent voice, and that voice comes up a lot. And that that’s where I needed to focus and that I needed to look for people who were doing those things well, and that I didn’t need to worry about trying to be like, I don’t know, somebody who wants to rise through the ranks at a Silicon Valley company, because that wasn’t me, that wasn’t what I actually wanted. And I think, if I hadn’t thought enough about that, I would have ended up chasing a lot of things that would have been, ultimately, very unsatisfying and left me burnt out.

Larry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, I’m wondering, among your friends and maybe clients, you must have folks who are in that exact situation, you just described, working your way up in a big organization or in a more permanent role in a company. Stepping back into your coaching hat and out of your personal experience, are there… Let me add to that, one of the things you said in your talk at Design & Content about how so often here is the thing that prevents a lot of this growth and advancement, like fear of losing status, whatever it is. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Sara:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I work with a lot of people who are working in organizations and I want to say also that I don’t vilify that and I do think that there’s really valuable work that can be done from inside of an organization. What I find is that routinely what people sort of… They have this realization that they want to be speaking up more, particularly the people I work with, particularly around issues of inclusion, equity, bias, harm. Those are the things that they tend to be thinking about. Like, “What can I do toward justice within my organization?” And that fear really gets in the way, because of a lot of reasons, some of those reasons are very justified. It’s like, “Well, I’m afraid I might lose my job and I need to make trade-offs.” And particularly early in a career, and particularly if you are from a marginalized group, a lot of those things can be really justified.

Sara:
But what I see happen sometimes with people is that they started out in that place, in a more junior role, and they kind of were like, “Just lucky to be here at all.” Was the feeling they had and then maybe they were in a field that they also felt was a little devalued. So content where they’re like, “Oh gosh, nobody takes us content folks that seriously.” So they’ve built that sense of self around being kind of the underdog. And then, at some point, they’re not really the underdog anymore, but that’s still the way that they’re viewing themselves. And so, what I see is that oftentimes people’s willingness to step up and to be a voice of dissent or sort of to put their values on the table, it lags behind the power that they actually have because they’re still viewing it through a lens of their prior self.

Sara:
I’m going to say bluntly, I see that really often with white women. I’m a white woman, certainly I’ve been guilty of that too, where it’s like, “Well, I’ve experienced being devalued. I’ve experienced sexism in all these different ways in my career. I’ve had people think I was the secretary. I’ve had people talk down to me or tell me that I was dressed too sexy or too dowdy or whatever. Tell me to not use ‘like,’ and make fun of my voice.” Or whatever all of those things are. And so, because of that, you start to buy into this belief that you are powerless even when, at the same time, all of that sexism you might’ve experienced was true, and at the same time, you’ve now grown into the senior role, you’re a senior manager with like… You’re a manager of multiple teams.

Sara:
And so, I think that there’s some reassessment that has to happen there and that I really try to encourage people to take stock of like, “Okay, all of what you’ve just described that you’re scared of is real. And also, all of this power that you’ve accumulated is real. Maybe it’s time to reassess what kind of risks you can take, and maybe it’s time to let go of some of that old identity that it’s not that it’s not true, but it’s not really serving you now. And maybe it’s time for you to be a bit bolder and to let yourself believe that you’re going to be able to figure out the risks of that.” Like, “You’re going to be able to be okay through it.” And I don’t mean to just say there are no risks or don’t worry about it. But I think getting out of that stuck spot of like, “Oh gosh, I can’t.” And being stuck in the way that you were perceived earlier in your career. I think that that’s a huge leap that oftentimes people need to take when they step up.

Larry:
Yep. And that is another leap. And you alluded earlier to something around… I’m trying to remember the example, but anyhow, can you think of examples of folks who’ve made that leap? Oh, I know what I was thinking. You don’t want to just copy management, but it’s good to have role models. And so, are there folks, whether you can identify them or just anonymize it, who’ve done a good job of having these insights and then making the leap?

Sara:
Well, I mean, I can’t talk about any specific examples of people that I work with at all. And actually, I take that super seriously. I think that’s one of the things that’s really important because when you start talking about this stuff with people, it is intimate. And I think that it is important to really deeply respect that. But I will say that one of the things that I’ve noticed with people is that, when we work together, I think one of the things that comes out is often that we get to a place where they can recognize the bolder choice and choose to take it.

Sara:
And I’m thinking of a specific example right now where I was working with somebody in a good sized tech company, and they’re in kind of a staff or principal UX kind of role, and they were still feeling really scared about kind of making a stand for anything. But really, when you’re in that role, that role that’s sort of like, you’re an independent contributor but you’re at a senior level in the organization, you are sort of responsible for setting standards for what is good practice in this field, and you’re responsible for training people who are coming up in your practice area on the type of work that they’re going to be doing, and you are leading on projects. When you’re in that kind of role, you actually have a tremendous amount of power.

Sara:
And so, what this person really needed to do was to assert what they thought was important so much more. So in the past, they had derived a lot of value in the organization by being valuable to others, like filling gaps, doing what was needed, jumping in, and people loved having them on projects because they were so great at just jumping in. And what that did though, was that put them in a place where they were only being recognized for a sort of reactive or supportive role and they weren’t being recognized for pushing in any direction. And so what they had to be able to do to get to that bolder place was to be able to say, “I have to say no to those things, even though people appreciate me for them, because that’s keeping me locked in this one level and what I need to do is I need to be able to say, “Here’s where I’m prioritizing. This is the direction I want us to grow in. And that means I’m going to take this kind of role.”

Sara:
And they were taking on… They had a choice for which sort of topic-based team they could join for their org’s growth. Like, “Do you want to help with culture or do you want to help with this, do you want to help with that?” And at first they were gravitating towards the one that was where they would have gone a couple of years ago. And then they were like, “Oh no, I need to do the one that’s bolder. I need to take this one that’s harder. I need to take this one where I have strong feelings about it, but I don’t have as much experience in it.” And I think that it’s those kinds of choices. It’s often not a big, obvious splashy thing, it’s just the million daily choices that are choosing to stick to what you know matters even when people really want you to do something else and choosing to kind of hold onto your energy for the stuff that is important and not get spun around by everybody else.

Larry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And you’ve kind of done that yourself in the way that you’ve… You’ve said people still come to you for content strategy and design work and you’re like, “Nope, I’m doing this.” And so, you are a role model in that regard, I think. Can you talk a little bit-

Sara:
Yeah, that’s really hard.

Larry:
Yeah.

Sara:
Yeah. I mean, I think that was really hard for me to do for a lot of reasons. One of them is that I am a content strategist. I am a UX person, that doesn’t stop. That is absolutely something that I still see as part of my identity. And so, I found that that was one piece that was making it difficult to say no, that it was like this piece of my identity was there. The other thing was fear of going into the unknowns. Like the fear of saying no to something that is relatively reliable. I mean, I was consulting for a long time and felt successful at it and had a lot of great opportunities in it. And so, it’s like, “Why am I saying no to these lovely things that are sort of known entities in order to do something else?” So there’s that piece.

Sara:
And it’s also just a really weird year. Where it’s like everybody’s sort of sense of safety and security has gone out the window, and to be able to hold fast to that during this weird year was really hard. But one of the things that I realized was that it’s not that I don’t enjoy content strategy work, it’s that I felt like it wasn’t giving me what I need now. And I felt that I actually had all these other things that I really wanted to pursue and that continuing to do that kind of work wasn’t leaving space for that, wasn’t leaving space for developing that. And that I don’t have to actually let go of that part of my identity in terms of… Those are skills that I have, and that’s a community that I still value and want to be part of and learn from, and also, I don’t have to do that work on a day to day basis for that to be true.

Sara:
And I think that that’s going to some of the binary thinking, where it’s like either/or, are you this or are you that? And once I let go of the binary thinking and I was like, “I still have that part of my identity. And I still care about that. I care deeply about it. And I’m putting my energy over here right now.” Then it became a lot easier to say no. And the reality is, of course, that by saying no, it really forces me to focus on the stuff that I want to be doing now and the result is that new opportunities and ideas come out that I wouldn’t have ever gotten to if I hadn’t kind of forced myself to say no. Saying no to what you don’t want any more is usually a prerequisite to the new thing even emerging. It’s really hard to see or to make space for until you’ve started saying some no’s.

Larry:
But that notion of like clearing the deck, is that-

Sara:
Exactly, yeah.

Larry:
… the concept… Yeah. You got to make room for the new thing. Yeah. Sara, I can’t believe this, we’re already coming up close to time. These conversations always go so quickly, but I always like to give you one last chance, is there anything last, anything that’s come up today that you want to elaborate on? Or just anything else that’s on your mind about content strategy, design, leadership?

Sara:
Yeah. Okay. I guess I would say, look, we’re in the weirdest year I’ve lived in so far and things keep getting weirder and sometimes worse, I hope they start to get better, but I would say, when you look around at everything that’s happening right now, if you are feeling exhausted and you were feeling stuck and you’re feeling burnt out and you were feeling like you’re spiraling, all of that is normal, and I think that this is a really great time to cut yourself some slack. When I talk about leadership, when I talk about stepping up, when I talk about having a voice, I don’t mean that you need to work even harder. What I actually mean is, pause, take a deep look at yourself, how are you actually doing, what are you really feeling? And let yourself kind of guide you where you need to go.

Sara:
I think that so much of leadership is actually like, “Are you willing to pause and listen to your gut?” And for a lot of us, I think we could be really great leaders right now if we lead the way toward more rest, if we lead the way toward more reasonable expectations, and if we lead the way toward building teams that have more psychological safety and more honest conversations. And I think that all of those forms of leadership are incredibly valuable. So, when I say leadership and when I say step up, don’t think that I mean work even harder because odds are good you’re probably working hard enough.

Larry:
Well, you reminded me right back to the very start of this conflation of management and leadership. Management is all about, “Go, go, go get things done.”

Larry:
Okay. Yeah, basically, I think you were just talking about all of this, it goes back to the start with that conflation of leadership and management and what you were just talking about, management is so much about like, “Go, go, accomplish, do this, do that.” Whereas leadership is about stepping out of that, getting back to the fundamental things that you’re about and want to accomplish and acknowledging that humanness that we all have, we’re not just automatons doing things, we are human beings being places. So anyhow, I loved the way you looped that back around whether you meant to or not.

Sara:
Yeah. I mean, I think, so much of what we’ve been taught about work is around productivity and productive toward what? I think that there’s a lot of reckoning with that, that people are doing individually and somewhat collectively right now. And I think that can be hard, that can feel like some tension between your day to day work in a workplace, like working on a digital product for some company that’s… And then you start getting into this place where it’s like, “Well, does any of this even matter?” And I think that that reckoning can be, can be challenging. But what I would say is that if you find yourself in that place of wondering, “Does any of this even matter, and what is my space in this?” Let yourself sit with that. It’s easy to avoid it, to kind of turn away from it, and go back to your little productivity tips. But ultimately, I think that that will continue to lead us to a place that is very dissatisfying and a place that is potentially really harmful for the world because I think that that is what led us to where we are right now in the year 2020.

Larry:
Less of this please and have more of what you’re talking about.

Sara:
Right, exactly.

Larry:
Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Sara. Hey, one last thing, what’s the best place if people want to follow you? Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, or do you have a social media or other outlet where you like to connect with folks?

Sara:
Sure. So, sarawb.com, personal site has links to all of the things that I do. Activevoicehq.com is the website for the business. And then, you can find me on Twitter at @sara_ann_marie, which I regret that username every day since 2007.

Larry:
Oh, great. Okay. And I’ll include those in the show notes as well. Well, thanks so much, Sara. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Sara:
Yeah. Thanks for having me again.